pompom
Joined: Feb 21, 2007
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 Posted:
Jan 18, 2009 - 13:30 |
 
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The last game i played in Blackbox was my delfs against Frankenstein's no rr dorfs.
I got so bored by it that i decided to retire the team.
Having to play a rookie delf team against Dorfs who are taking advantage of the -10ts is nothing but boring.
Frankenstein, your stalling, cage forming, dirty trick roster - sucked the life out of the game. I'm not in this thread to discuss wether any of these things should be allowed but when you deploy them all in one swoop, its no wonder you hear alot of complaints.
as for patronizing... How about a big list of your oppionions displayed as facts...
Delfs are my race of choice and it is a shame that i am not excited by the prospect of playing them in this division.
Pom |
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SillySod
Joined: Oct 10, 2006
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Jan 18, 2009 - 13:31 |
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Category systems are nice in theory but in practice they have the following downsides:
1) they're pretty inflexible, suppose I want to put forward a skaven team, a goblin team, a norse team, and a chaos dwarf team.... thats a pretty balanced mix but the chances are it wont fit the categories.
2) you're likely not to solve the racial imbalances but just create new ones. A dorf/necro/darkie box is an improvement on a dorfbox but potentially its still got the same "yawn, not -that- team again" problem.
3) some coaches will be "clever" and create one game only non-teams filled with stars just to avoid having to play a category properly (although I think they'ed get tired of this).
Overall I'm in favour of a category sytem but I think racial imbalance can be solved differently. I still like this idea:
| Quote: | | I'd prefer a credit system. Basicly the credit system gives you credits for playing games with underused races (e.g. goblins) but takes them away for using the same races as everyone else (e.g. orcs). You cant play a particular team if the game would take your credits below zero, obviously the system would have to feed in more credits than it takes away to give people a certain amount of flexibility. That way if you played nothing but orcs and chaos your suppy of credits would dry up fast so you'd either have to play something else like goblins or vampires for a while or you could say goodbye to playing in [B]. |
This would mean that everyone could have their slice of the orc pie but stop them if they play exclusively orcs (and if orcs are a popular race). However, it would not stop people from playing endless pro elves, vampires, or nurgle because all those teams increase racial diversity (obviously this would change if they suddenly became too popular). Equally you could play a relatively neutral race like norse or humans pretty much endlessly... unless enough other people also did that.
The idea is that its up to individual players to place a relatively balanced set of teams but if anyone abuses that trust then they get forced to balance it. |
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Putting the "eh?" back into Sexeh.
"There are those to whom knowledge is a shield. There are those to whom it is a weapon. Neither view is balanced." |
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Frankenstein
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
Jan 18, 2009 - 13:45 |
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There's already more than enough patronizing in blackbox (worst point being the enforced activation of all teams).
Now you seriously want to force people to play certain rosters, because high TS is too bashy? And even if so, high TS will remain bashy as softer races have serious difficulties to maintain high TS anyway.
Correct me if I am wrong, but to my understanding, that's exactly the opposite what blackbox is meant to be.
Certainly [R] is the logical choice for carebears? |
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Frankenstein
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
Jan 18, 2009 - 13:52 |
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Races I have played against so far in 39 games:
| Code: | Chaos : 7
Dark Elf : 5
Lizardmen : 4
Wood Elf : 4
Halfling : 3
High Elf : 3
Khemri : 3
Human : 2
Ogre : 2
Amazon : 1
Elf : 1
Norse : 1
Rotters : 1
Orc : 1 (Emphasy's all lineorc funteam)
Undead : 1
Dwarf : 0
Chaos Dwarf : 0
Goblin : 0
Vampire : 0
Necro : 0
Skaven : 0 |
Out of 39 games I have played 1 (!) against orcs and none against chaos dwarfs and dwarfs.
I mean, seriously, even if this a small sample, this is no coincidence. If you check out the games, where orcs are involved, that's high TR/TS most of the times.
Orcs (and several other bashy races) can reach and maintain a high TR/TS far easier than other teams, therefore a higher percentage at that range is to be expected.
Even if you force people to play soft races, you'd still encounter almost as many bashy teams at high TR/TS as you do now. |
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Frankenstein
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Jan 18, 2009 - 13:56 |
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| pompom wrote: | | as for patronizing... How about a big list of your oppionions displayed as facts... |
It's an opinion and not a fact that orcs are able to reach and maintain a high TR/TS easier than most other races?
Interesting.
| CircularLogic wrote: | | Frankenstein, you have opened my eyes.. I shall go forth and retire my humans and woodelves and create dorfs and chaos instead. I can keep my orcs. Thx for the advice. |
OK, I do understand that your intention is to flame me for the sake of flaming me.
I am, however, surprised, that your comment has almost no relation to my initial post at all. With Shadow, that hasn't really come as a big surprise, but you usually produce posts which makes sense and contribute to a discussion.
Curious.  |
Last edited by Frankenstein on %b %18, %2009 - %15:%Jan; edited 1 time in total |
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shadow46x2
Joined: Nov 22, 2003
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Jan 18, 2009 - 14:50 |
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| Kondor wrote: | | Least retarded, yet retarded. So you play against fewer bashers. Big harry deal. If that is your agenda, play in ranked. |
so, in other words, you think this is perfectly ok?
| Frankenstein wrote: | | pompom wrote: | | as for patronizing... How about a big list of your oppionions displayed as facts... |
It's an opinion and not a fact that orcs are able to reach and maintain a high TR/TS easier than most other races?
Interesting. |
and, frankenstein....one opinion(and yes, it is still an opinion), that could be true, does not mean the rest of your post was true also....in fact, most of your "opinions" couldn't have been farther from fact...
--j |
_________________
| origami wrote: | | There is no god but Nuffle, and Shadow is his prophet. |
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Gran
Joined: Jul 07, 2005
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| Posted:
Jan 18, 2009 - 14:54 |
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| Frankenstein wrote: | | Certainly [R] is the logical choice for carebears? |
So people playing high AV races aren't "carebears", but low AV players are? To me it's the other way around. Dwarf players do take such manly risks with their players after all.... |
_________________
The trouble is that things *never* get better, they just stay the same, only more so.
-- (Terry Pratchett, Eric)
Today Is A Good Day For Someone Else To Die!
-- (Terry Pratchett, Feet of Clay) |
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benkobi
Joined: Oct 08, 2006
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| Posted:
Jan 18, 2009 - 15:09 |
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I want to be able to play dwarves in the stunty division. |
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Frankenstein
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Jan 18, 2009 - 15:27 |
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| shadow46x2 wrote: | | Frankenstein wrote: | Fact 4:
As it is difficult to play the aforementioned 4 races (and khemri) in [R], it appears only naturally that people give them a try in a division (i.e. blackbox), where games for these teams are assured. Additionally, there is no need to sport less Claw/RSC/DP/MB than usual in order to get these games (a concession you often encounter in [R]). |
so basically, because people build team-killers in ranked that don't get matches, and decide "oh well people are forced to play me in blackbox", it's perfectly ok?....
that's pretty antisocial behavior don't you think?(and apparently, from the way people like to describe me, i'm apparently an expert on antisocial behavior) |
No, not basically.
What you're saying is basically not related to what I have written.
Erm, you are aware that 3 out of those 9 games have been played against the same dwarf team within about 4 hours at night?
Of course, that's probably just opinion rather than fact again, I guess...  |
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vanGorn
Joined: Feb 24, 2004
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Jan 18, 2009 - 15:54 |
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Maybe it's just the conspiracy's fault. o_0 |
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Gimme a pint of fungus beer!
Then we will climb the ladder.
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CircularLogic
Joined: Aug 22, 2003
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Jan 18, 2009 - 16:02 |
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| Frankenstein wrote: | | CircularLogic wrote: | | Frankenstein, you have opened my eyes.. I shall go forth and retire my humans and woodelves and create dorfs and chaos instead. I can keep my orcs. Thx for the advice. |
OK, I do understand that your intention is to flame me for the sake of flaming me.
I am, however, surprised, that your comment has almost no relation to my initial post at all. With Shadow, that hasn't really come as a big surprise, but you usually produce posts which makes sense and contribute to a discussion.
Curious. |
It has alot of relation to your initial post. Your initial post says roughly:
"Stop whining. The box is how it is, so deal with it."
So the logical reaction - if following your appeal - is to stop posting and just take races that don`t care if they play dorf/khemri/orcs/chaos all day long. And those races are dorf/orcs/khemri/chaos.
But when I looked at my teams, I just could retire them like that, so I chose the alternative: I quit playing [B]. |
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Frankenstein
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
Jan 18, 2009 - 16:11 |
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| CircularLogic wrote: | | Frankenstein wrote: | | CircularLogic wrote: | | Frankenstein, you have opened my eyes.. I shall go forth and retire my humans and woodelves and create dorfs and chaos instead. I can keep my orcs. Thx for the advice. |
OK, I do understand that your intention is to flame me for the sake of flaming me.
I am, however, surprised, that your comment has almost no relation to my initial post at all. With Shadow, that hasn't really come as a big surprise, but you usually produce posts which makes sense and contribute to a discussion.
Curious. |
It has alot of relation to your initial post. Your initial post says roughly:
"Stop whining. The box is how it is, so deal with it."
So the logical reaction - if following your appeal - is to stop posting and just take races that don`t care if they play dorf/khemri/orcs/chaos all day long. And those races are dorf/orcs/khemri/chaos.
But when I looked at my teams, I just could retire them like that, so I chose the alternative: I quit playing [B]. |
Nope, what I'm saying is, that ,at a high TR/TS, you will encounter races that perform well at high TR/TS more often than other races, even more so if those races are popular anyway and it's difficult to find casual games with them in [R]. That is not a flaw - that is to be expected.
The (perceived) endless moaning about it is completely over the top (in my opinion). |
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Archevol
Joined: Dec 14, 2008
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Jan 18, 2009 - 16:28 |
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I agree that, at higher TS/TR, you are likely to find more bashy teams. Why? Because everyone willing to play low AV teams has eventually had their team killed. That's BB across the board tho'. Sometimes it only takes a really unlucky game.
However, all games are supposed to be a challenge. Surely by stacking the odds in your favour by running overkill teams removes your oppo's enjoyment of the game? And also affects the future enjoyment of their team?
I would support a [B] that stacks limits on the number of times you can choose skills. Using mutations as an example, how is stacking claw/rsc on all your players embracing the randomness of chaos? It would be much more fun surely to meet AND play a foul app/tentacled/long legged team.
After all, [B] should be like a box of chocolates... 
P.S. I'm new to fumbbl. I've not yet gone into [B]. I will, but I'm starting to have expectations. Expectations are bad... |
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CircularLogic
Joined: Aug 22, 2003
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| Posted:
Jan 18, 2009 - 16:37 |
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Elves perform best at high TR/TS - though I don`t see anyyone encountering them at TS220+ very often in [B].
It`s rather that basher are the only one tough enough to move up to that TS and stay there without being crippled with a few games. This indeed has to do with the fact, that bashers are very popular - in two ways. For one, because basher are popular and way more abundant and cannot be avoided, teams prone to injury won`t be able to reach higher TS levels, because the encounter heavy attrition from the start. The other aspect is that basher become even more popular, because they are the only kind of team that you can reasonably expect to grow to high TS levels and keep them there.
Both points are mutually reinforcing, making it tougher and tougher to play speedy races. Because - unlike in a closed environment - they cannot utilize their advantage, that they usually gain more SPP per game.
Non-bashers will of course be played.. there are always coaches that like the tough challenge, but they will be rare and few. I also think that when the 'basher content' grows, people get less attracted to [B] which will hurt the division. |
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SillySod
Joined: Oct 10, 2006
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Jan 18, 2009 - 16:50 |
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| Archevol wrote: | | After all, [B] should be like a box of chocolates... |
 |
_________________
Putting the "eh?" back into Sexeh.
"There are those to whom knowledge is a shield. There are those to whom it is a weapon. Neither view is balanced." |
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