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Poll
2003 Rules Review
Not Crappy!
28%
 28%  [ 51 ]
Wait and See 'tude.
44%
 44%  [ 81 ]
Crappy!
27%
 27%  [ 49 ]
Total Votes : 181


Bretter



Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Post   Posted: Nov 27, 2003 - 18:59 Reply with quote Back to top

Sorry, I don't many positive changes in this rules review other than to approve some experimental teams. WA is easily now the worse negative trait among the big guys, but at least the WA box is gone.

I was never a fan of PO before, but certainly much less now.

I never saw a real issue with pro, so I'm not clear why it needs to be a trait.

Only cas's that count for spp's count for ff? I'm sorry, but this is blood bowl. So if you are that afraid of your players getting hurt, than go play monopoly. Sure it sucks when your great player goes down in a ball of flames, but that's part of the game. What's next, are we going to have -1 to ff rolls if your team commits a foul? Get real

A dwarf team without a big guy? Well, at least I can see that one making sense. But being a dwarf coach just got a hell of a lot harder. Not that I was ever that good to begin with...
deathgerbil



Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Post   Posted: Nov 27, 2003 - 20:12 Reply with quote Back to top

had the exact same thoughts myself hobo. If they were allowed to stand up without having to use the wild animal roll, and blitz too, then wild animals wouldn't be complete pieces of crap. If you wanted to move them, you'd have to blitz with them, - effectively wasting your blitz for the turn. but they wouldn't be forced to just stare at people taunting them 5 feet away, and do absolutely nothing.
UberEvil



Joined: Oct 20, 2003

Post   Posted: Nov 27, 2003 - 20:40 Reply with quote Back to top

Quote:

I never saw a real issue with pro, so I'm not clear why it needs to be a trait.

Only cas's that count for spp's count for ff? I'm sorry, but this is blood bowl. So if you are that afraid of your players getting hurt, than go play monopoly. Sure it sucks when your great player goes down in a ball of flames, but that's part of the game. What's next, are we going to have -1 to ff rolls if your team commits a foul? Get real


Pro: When it is "the" choice for every big guy after the initial block skill it just gets boring. Now it is still usable but a coach will think of other options too. I think this should be done for other dominating skill choices too. Perhaps even block and dodge...

Cas: Most teams that do foul are the already bashy ones. And I don't see many bashy teams coming short of the 2+ cas anyway. Fouling was never meant to be a ff increaser. It's there to take out key players and to get a player advantage. And I still think it does it's job just fine, not much of a difference for fouling. This way the bashy teams most often get the +1 for cas and the agile teams their +1 for TD's... more even... and the skilled coach has little prob. getting both. I play orcs, dwarf, and CD's... all of them considered bashy, no elf teams on my list and I'm as happy as ever. Fouling and DP is still great for the coach who can use them, useless bashing just became more useless.

WA: Have to agree a bit in all peoples whining on this one. It's really a tad bit bad for now.
Solution? Sack them in wait for a change. Poke the admins in the eye, begging for a Str reduction. Get into the discussions at talkbloodbowl and other communities and tell your opinion (in a friendly and hopefully constructive way) and it might change someday. Or simply try to find new ways and skills to make them usefull again. It might be possible....

Just my two SEK
Bretter



Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Post   Posted: Nov 27, 2003 - 22:43 Reply with quote Back to top

UberEvil wrote:
Pro: When it is "the" choice for every big guy after the initial block skill it just gets boring. Now it is still usable but a coach will think of other options too. I think this should be done for other dominating skill choices too. Perhaps even block and dodge...


I'm not biting on this reasoning. Of course, I'm not a fan of traits at all, so I'm baised. And if Dodge and Block are ever made traits, it would be just plain dumb. Hell, make kick a trait because every team that gets over 200 TR is bound to have one person on their team with it...

If the point of traits was to get teams some diversity with their skill choices, then limit the number of traits. Or maybe start to incorporate some of the experimental skills from other leagues (eg MBBL2). But when you start to add more and more skills to the trait column, you are really further limiting what choices you have. Honestly, I think the team hit hardest is the Vamp team.


UberEvil wrote:
Cas: Most teams that do foul are the already bashy ones. And I don't see many bashy teams coming short of the 2+ cas anyway. Fouling was never meant to be a ff increaser. It's there to take out key players and to get a player advantage. And I still think it does it's job just fine, not much of a difference for fouling. This way the bashy teams most often get the +1 for cas and the agile teams their +1 for TD's... more even... and the skilled coach has little prob. getting both. I play orcs, dwarf, and CD's... all of them considered bashy, no elf teams on my list and I'm as happy as ever. Fouling and DP is still great for the coach who can use them, useless bashing just became more useless.


I disagree. Elf teams will (typically) get only +1 for tds, but I think Orcs and CD's will usually get +2 (for both). You should be selling me the arguement that fans don't appreciate the bloodshed from dirty tricks and the like. I'm not really a dp kind of coach anyway, so this has little bearing on my style of play.

UberEvil wrote:
WA: Have to agree a bit in all peoples whining on this one. It's really a tad bit bad for now.
Solution? Sack them in wait for a change. Poke the admins in the eye, begging for a Str reduction. Get into the discussions at talkbloodbowl and other communities and tell your opinion (in a friendly and hopefully constructive way) and it might change someday. Or simply try to find new ways and skills to make them usefull again. It might be possible....


I agree. We will all have to adapt. Although I really hope that there is some serious data on playtesting this change at least. Wild animals seemed to be relatively balanced before.
UberEvil



Joined: Oct 20, 2003

Post   Posted: Nov 27, 2003 - 23:03 Reply with quote Back to top

No, I'm not a fan of traits either... I just think some skills are worth toning down, but then again... I would choose to tone down a lot of skils before pro. BBRC's take on this is most likely to simply tone down big guys as most of the new changes (PO, WA, Pro) is affecting them more than any others.

If I was a fan I'd sure like to see some fouling, but my main point is that I don't think it will matter much. Perhaps BBRC's take on this is to have teams get less FF and thus weaker team for all of us Very Happy .... or wait... Our two cents seem to differ at this point, but no matter... I think we all can agree that this is one of the more insignificant changes, compared to WA, PO and others.

Seems most of us agree on that WA is not as good. The tone seems to be a bit different with the veterans over at talkbloodbowl.com though. Many of them think it's better or at least not that much worse. Guess time will tell... Not all changes are always for the better, but change is fun, so keep changing bloodbowl (not too much though) Very Happy . Would be really fun if the new WA turned out better than the old... lol

I like that the review has stirred up things and that people are talking about it. Could do without all the folks flaming, swearing and not thinking it through though (don't mean you Bretter... you make a good argument... just not as good as mine Wink.
psikobunny



Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Post   Posted: Nov 27, 2003 - 23:33 Reply with quote Back to top

I was under the impression that the Cas for FF ruling was primarily to clarify Cas by the crowd as not counting, since that had been a gray area.
UberEvil



Joined: Oct 20, 2003

Post   Posted: Nov 27, 2003 - 23:52 Reply with quote Back to top

Also true... or perhaps more likely... the only truth Very Happy
slyspygb



Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Post   Posted: Nov 28, 2003 - 00:04 Reply with quote Back to top

Ok What monkey in a suit decided to make changes to some of these rules................

Wild aminal - I agree with the first 6 words "wild aminals are extremely violent creatures" then it kind of looses me !
I'm sure it then goes on to say......blah blah poo blah... etc.... Sounds good on paper but in the game?
What have they done ! Now wild animals are worse than trolls but at least if trolls have someone in their tackle zone then they have the possability of doing stuff.

Secondly....
Pile On - Now I do agree that pile on is a very nasty skill and poeple have been abusing it. Should it be toned down...YES !
BUT........ They are now trying to tell us that if a halfing in a jump suit was to 'pile on' a AV 9 troll it would have the same effect as a ST 5 'Pile on' mummy.
Are they laughing at us ? they must be. I would be. I would be laughing my ass off !

Thirdly....
PRO - hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah
Told you I would be laughing my ass off.
And they paid GW staff to make this up !
gken1



Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Post   Posted: Dec 01, 2003 - 02:25 Reply with quote Back to top

"wild animals should be able to block and blitz" ---you guys are funny that's what they did already and what kind of negative is that.

I think it should be block for free. 3+ for everything else. not a sure thing not SUper restrictive.
poi66



Joined: Aug 16, 2003

Post   Posted: Dec 03, 2003 - 08:39 Reply with quote Back to top

To quote BunnyPuncher: "They could have done this new rules by chips and beer.." - I donīt think so, IMO they did it on heavy drugs....

PO, Pro and WA were discussed enough... I also think they totally suck...

But the real hard thing is the Hypnotic Gaze. Vampires were always difficult to play, but now it is really bad. Why should I hypnotize a guy standing right in front off me, when I can punch the sucker down - eventually even making a CAS? This skill is useless now!

If HG was too strong, why not limit it on one HG action per turn like Blitz, but like the old rules?
thmbscrws



Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Post   Posted: Dec 03, 2003 - 09:08 Reply with quote Back to top

The vamps were just sucker punched by the rules gods. Why was this needed to begin with? Did anyone really think vamps were too good? I have played a lot of games with and against vamp teams and they seemed like a balanced team to me if anything a little weak. They were, however, a lot of fun to play with because of all the options with player developement and the really interesting hypno gaze plays they could pull off when they didn't feel like eating thralls. If there was a problem with them changing pro really should have been enough to fix it. I think it's also clear that div x is going to be a real pain to get a game in now. The only teams left that are experimental are the allied teams which are way overpowered and the vamps that no one will want to play anymore, hopefully they will be releasing some new experimental rosters soon to breath new life inot the division.

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HunterX



Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Post   Posted: Dec 03, 2003 - 14:34 Reply with quote Back to top

Don't forget the ogres.

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Mordachai



Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Post   Posted: Dec 03, 2003 - 15:23 Reply with quote Back to top

Those of you who have been around for a while and followed the Vampire discussion some time ago should be aware of my opinions about the team - but I can't really see the problem. The vampire team remained experimental - so the "official" rules don't suffer much (any at all?) from this change. That the change wasn't necessary is something I agree on, though.

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wookie



Joined: Oct 02, 2003

Post   Posted: Dec 03, 2003 - 15:52 Reply with quote Back to top

Suggestion on Piling On: How about making it a reroll that also adds STR-3 to the armor roll? This would reflect differences in weight in a balanced way.

I agree that PO was previously too good with +5 armour rolls. However, it should be more dangerous making an Ogre land on a player compared to a Halfling! Also, the disadvantage of a prone Ogre is much larger...
albator2001



Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Post   Posted: Dec 03, 2003 - 16:02 Reply with quote Back to top

Revener wrote:
Only 2 wights allowed again Sad Evil or Very Mad

Dammit when I started playing only 2 wight where allowed, and now they have to take them away again.
Why couldn't they remove 2 ghouls instead, they die anyway.


Aarghh! only 2 wights in Necromantic too, why the hell can't they et us have 4 wights. They could at least have given the Werewolf Regenrate....

And Khemri are still allowed 4 Mummies and 2 Blitzers with ST skills.... BAH!!!!!


Khemri suck before the rule review and now it will be worse.

PO is useless now. The only good new for Khemri is +1 in AV for Blitzers.

But skeletons and trowers will die or niggle a lot with 7 AV and without apotecary.
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