phillier
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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 Posted:
Nov 27, 2003 - 16:32 |
 
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Comparing the PO to the reroll skills is just silly...pretty sure the other ones don't place the player prone even if it works...and berating people for "building their team around 1 skill" is wrong, for teams who can score 1 maybe twice per game it is in their best interest to deplete the ranks of the opponent therefore making it easier to score and stop the opposition from scoring. And to whomever said that PO was wrong cause it made it to easy to get through orc armor of nine-THATS WHAT ITS FOR. HAving a team with nearly all armor nine and access to gaurd without doubles is the unfair thing. Anyway if it makes the panzies feel safer with PO changed ,fine, but it isn't a decent skill anymore because yuo have to place a player prone to maybe break armor. I am not suggesting that it be changed back or changed again because the overwhelming majority sees it the other way, but I want to trade my PO in for a different skill because in the current incarnation I will never use it and I dont think its fair to those of us who have it. With PO the way it is I would find surefeet, stripball, or even kick more useful for my mummy. |
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tore
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Nov 27, 2003 - 17:07 |
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May I congratulate Valind on his eloquence in choosing a topic subject! 
On a more serious note:
| Kaz wrote: |
tackle (prevents a reroll, which is worthless, so it prevents something worthless, so take something better)
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Tackle also takes down a player with dodge when blocking, so it's not just a reroll prevention skill. Any dwarf coach will tell you how useless Zons become if you hit 'em with 11 tacklers.
The change in PO forces bashy coaches to block strategically. Beating the opposition by +5 to armour rolls does not constitute strategy. |
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phillier
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Nov 27, 2003 - 17:16 |
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No tore flattening players does not contitute strategy, but placing intimidating players on the pitch in such a manner as to redirect the opposition's path to the endzone does take strategy. A player who mindlessly piles on is easy to beat anyway. Pilers on are better used as a deterent and to direct the flow of the game. Having just played against a m ummy for the first time with the change I found the skill laughable and my strategy unaffected. In fact I was putting players directly in the mummies path just hoping he would pile on and go prone. It is a complete joke. |
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Mezir
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Nov 27, 2003 - 17:20 |
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Why is crushing your opponent into oblivion the best way to win games? I normally manage the same by playing to the clock - always score in turn 8. Take the correct skills (Block/Guard/Tackle - all bash teams can get those on a lot of players) and surely you can stop those nasty elves from breaking your cage.
As for Undead, which I see are complaining because they can't get more than two Guards without doubles - you have four Ghouls with MA 7, AG 3, Dodge and access to AG skills. You can score fast, and defend strong. Undead are not a bash team, they are a hybrid team (much like humans) - so they certainly don't need to kill the opposition to win.
SO AV 9 has once more become tough to break (not the 5+ AV roll of yesterday) - tell me, when playing high AV teams do you need to take out the opposition? AV 9 teams generally don't score in two turns, they rumble across the field just like you do. Meet them blow for blow. Better TZ placement and better blocking will win you the game every time. It's not like they're elves who will ignore your set-up and score anyway. It's a lot more fun relying on strategy to win than it is on relying on one skill to take out 50% of your opponent's team. |
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deathgerbil
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Nov 27, 2003 - 17:28 |
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the think i think is screwed up with piling on is that weight or strength now has nothing to do with the damage caused by piling on. most people wouldn't give a flip if a 30 pound halfling jumped on top of them, but if a 1/2 ton minotaur or ogre jumped on top of someone, some ribs are going to crack. now with the incarnation of the skill as it currently is, - piling on is now a skill for halflings, gobbos, and other weak bashers, instead of for the powerful hitters. |
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Mezir
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Nov 27, 2003 - 17:34 |
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Why? It's the powerful hitters who still have the most chance of breaking AV. Halflings can't get Mighty Blow - Mighty Blow makes PO worth it still.
Additionally, Claw + PO is now the killer combo. Add in RSC, and you may have needed more skills, but you're more likely to kill than you were before with PO + RSC (given str 4 or lower). |
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Build a man a fire and he's warm for a day; set a man on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life. |
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Mordachai
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Nov 27, 2003 - 18:13 |
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My opinion is that the changes to PO not only makes sense - they were necessary! PO still is a very good skill, especially combined with MB or Claw, it just isn't broken anymore. If the skill had been "always fall", then it had worked in it's old incarnation, but choosing after the roll made it way overpowered.
As for the coaches who whine about that the PO change has made "their team useless" because "I have so many PO" - please just stop! That the skill was to be changed has been known for quite a while now. While most of the changes in rules review were totally uncertain, the PO change can't come as a surprise to anyone!
Live with it, the Halfling teams will have to, as will all teams with Minos and ROs... and if you think it is unfair, start over and take other skills instead. |
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Mazzix
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Nov 27, 2003 - 19:04 |
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I too approve the PO rule change. It will bring more balance, since cas makers using PO/RSC were really over powered. Also, now PO is more interesting for any races and players! Even a simple linerat with claw will have advantage of taking it, nless a DP is around, of course.
This will force the bash teams to rethink their strat a little, and maybe remember that there's a ball in this game, and that you dont need to destroy the opposition before taking care of it. Bashy teams can play a very nice defense and take 8 turns to score and delay the game to win against liight teams. Its a false idea to think they need to kill their opponents. |
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- Denis Leary |
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UrienRakarth
Joined: Sep 04, 2003
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Nov 27, 2003 - 19:23 |
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Piling On now is more useful in a low str team... a goblin with PO is effective equal to a Mummy with PO... this is absurd, it's an obscenity! BTW this new rule increase the str of dwarves and beastman (cause now it's good to give PO on a low str, and think a while -> PO+Claw+RSF is now devastating, if u don't break armour with +2 +2 u have the re-roll! scary!), if we needed it... (i think dwarves and chaos was the strongest team with old rules.... now they are even better)
However let's play this new BarbieBowl, and see... Surely this new PO is better than new Wild Animal or Hypno! |
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deathgerbil
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Nov 27, 2003 - 20:04 |
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i don't think that there was a bonus to armor with the rsc just injury rolls. and the bonus for armor rolls is still capped at +2. also, the odds of getting claw and razor claws on any single person are VERY small. ITrust me Urien, Chaos got shafted with these new rules. |
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Delta
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Nov 27, 2003 - 20:42 |
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| UrienRakarth wrote: | | a goblin with PO is effective equal to a Mummy with PO... |
Only AFTER the defending player has been knocked over!
For those of you wanting a reasonable explanation to the obvious weight difference for the piling on skill..it's the ST of a player which gives the better chance to knock someone over in the first place (1, 2 or 3 block dice)...piling on could just be how good they are at landing on something vital.
Imagine if that little goblin managed to land on your nether-regions? Surely that can be just as painful!!
Also, hasn't anyone questioned how a goblin with block would knock down a mummy without block, with the right die roll?
Nice avatar btw....wonder if I can get one of those for my bathroom!! |
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Cain is for Charlie and Delta is for Cain |
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Grod
Joined: Sep 30, 2003
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Nov 27, 2003 - 21:33 |
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Well the new Pile On is not all that bad. Consider that pile on is the ONLY way to reroll an armour roll, previously this was not possible. It should certainly be useful on the last turn of each half, and for players fouling (can you use pile on for fouling?), especially when combined with DP. Norse blitzers with jump up should still find it useful as well.
And while this skill is now of equal benefit to all players, it is still a strength skill, and so only available without doubles to blockers.
Thats my two cents worth. |
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locutus
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Nov 27, 2003 - 23:49 |
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Its not fair changing this skill. What are these old basher teams if they dont kill all your players?. Where is the fun in trying to score?.
Come on , only a reroll, that doesnt guarantee you kill the other player, maybe he can even stand up next turn and try to run.
My proposal is going back to the past but with a few changes applied as it should be.
Mummies with PO. +5 to armour roll (as in the past) + 1 to injuries and (here comes the new part), as it is a mummie it has been in a tomb , in the tomb there is dust so you get dust in the player and he cant see for 3 turns so you have to roll a dice to see the direction it goes.
Trolls with PO. Also back to the old +5 to armour roll + 1 to injuries plus, its a troll and all trolls were born with a club in a hand so the truth is that it hits you with the club so you in fact you are nailed in the ground and you cannot move for 3 turns.
Ogre with PO. Also back to +5/+1 and ogre are always angry so you have to roll a dice, in a 1-3 you are scared and runs out from the field, on a 4-6 you try to get his friendship and another rolls is made, in a roll of 1-3 he eats you (friendly but he eats you), on a 4-6 you can move normally.
Treemen with PO. Also back to old PO +6/+1 plus, if the tree in the following turn cannot stand up you dies (asphyxia of course). If he can get up you get a dozen of apples in the head, on a roll of 1-3 you get all the apples in the head so its an injurie roll with +2, on a roll of 4-6 you eat the apples as they fall and can stand up normally but your movement decreases by 2 for 3 turns (cause you are more fat and cannot move the same way).
The beast, +5/+1. In the following turn you have to roll a dice, in a 1-3 you lose 20 points of sanity (see Cthulhu rpg players handbook), in a 4-6 roll your face changes into a mix of danny de vito, barbara streisand and Marty Feldman faces and gains foul appareance.
Minotaur, also gets the old +5/+1 plus a second and third hole in the ass. No additional rolls needed.
I didnt have time to think in other kind of players but any suggestions will be well received. |
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deathgerbil
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Nov 28, 2003 - 00:05 |
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delta, - thats why you wear cups |
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Niiv
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Nov 28, 2003 - 00:06 |
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Ill just like to say that PO (and razor sharp claws and dirty player) were crappy in the old rules because they make it too easy to make casualties, and it makes the game less enjoyable over time...when you meet a tr 300 chaos team it is no fun! And noone wants to play elves then...it leaves experienced players with few teams to pick from: Orcs, Dwarves, Chaos...and that's crap!!! In tournaments it is no fun either to be sliced to bits everytime u play, and yes the game is extremely violent, and should be, but the carnage should be about maximizing your blocking opportunities and thereby kicking ass...not just bcos your team has a bunch of crazed skills.
By the way the AG and MA teams haven't got skills to match fx PO, like most teams cant match a RSCs mutation...and it stinks - what about diving tackle fx - its been ruined, but it goes to make a more fair game and that, I think, is the righteus goal for the development of this game - that each race has a possibility (exept stunties) to win a tournament...so stop whining and play WArhammer if you only need carnage |
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