Carnis
Joined: Feb 03, 2009
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 Posted:
Feb 11, 2009 - 14:26 |
 
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I'm at a loss here, as to how any agility team is supposed to compete with post LRB5.0 dwarf teams after the changes to 1) piling on skill 2) new harsher fouling rules and 3) the inducement system 4) one turn TD'ing is now relatively hard for all (woodies lost a MA on their catcher [in LRB5.0+experimental], VLL no longer gives + MA to any gutter rolling doubles).
The rules for those not in the know about LRB 5.0:
Fouling was nerfed so that you get ejected on doubles on both Armor AND Injury rolls (efectively 18% or 30,5% depending on do you penetrate - making fouling of high AV players extremely risky). The additional +1 to armor roll for fouling was removed, and Dirty player skill was nerfed to only give +1 to Armor or Injury checks. This is slightly compensated by getting a sneaky git player, but only works if you don't penetrate.
Piling on was buffed to work also on the injury check if not first used on armor. This means a Mighty Blow / Piling on knockdown has an awesome 31%-58% chance of causing a knockout or an injury on any block depending on your armor (31% for AV9, 58% for AV7).
You get inducement gold according to the value difference between your teamratings. This can be used to purchase star players, team wizard etc.
Oh, and apothecary never returns your player on the field after healing an injury (goes to reserves) and even then only gives you a reroll on the CAS check (works effectively on a 1-3, avoids permanent dmg on 4, permanent dmg anyway on a 5-6).
The combination above means you can't effectively remove players by fouling anymore (you can do it almost profitably with dp/sneaky - but not really effectively vs thick skull). Whereas a trollslayer taking mighty blow/piling on as first skills will have an awesome 95% chance to knock down (from 2d block/frenzy) a no-skill AV8 lineman with 44% chance of knockout or worse. Being a smart guy our dwarf coach always piles on with his trollslayers, regardless of opponent armor/game situation. Rerolls are also used should a MB/piling 2die block/frenzy blitz fail to knock down.
In our local league, we've got about 7 coaches who play offline rather actively, but only 2 of us here in FUMBBL also. The teams in our league are agility heavy with 1 vampire, 2 high elf, 1 dark elf, 1 pro-elf, 1 slann, 1 ogre, 1 dwarf and we also used to have a wood elf/skaven/norse coaches but they changed teams.
One of us has managed to beat the dwarf team only once in the whole history of the offline league (wood elves beat him 2-1 with extreme luck in the armor rolls + the dwarf team wasn't as developed as it is now).
His strategy is simple enough really. Both trollslayers take MB/Piling/Guard. All longbeards (renamed Blockers in LRB5) take Guard/MB or MB/Guard. All blitzers take Guard/MB. Doubles go on diving tackle. Runners take Block/Kick etc. Runner picks up the ball, guards surround him and he already has sure hands so leaping play is out for strip ball wood elf/slann coaches.
On an average game he racks up something around 4-7 casualties (depends a bit on opponent's AV & nuffle ofc) and 1,5 the amount of knockouts with the Block/Frenzy/MB/PO combo, beating his own half while stalling for a turn 8 TD 1-0. IF you were lucky or stayed down the whole defense, you can now try to oneturn (we don't have skaven/gutter runners anymore and the dwarf knows how to position to avoid chainpush OTT's - could still try with grab, but very unlikely even then). After that fails you now have 8 turns to try and even the score. Normally you can score 1 TD, but he'll win 2-1 cause you couldn't stall with your 5vs11. Sometimes you can't even score that 1 when he overwhelms you 3 dwarves to 1. Also he cleverly spams rerolls to go for it's to counter low MA. Frenzy is also spammed for crowdsurfs, should the opportunity arise. But that's not really an issue (LRB5.0+ Apoth works on crowds too).
Now the thing is, if you stack up on reserve players to counter his awesome hitting power you're losing even harder. His teamrating is kept relatively low by only fielding 1 reserve player and dwarf rerolls being so cheap. So a guy buying 16 players will be facing his team + Wizard (150k, or.. the cost of 2 reserve elf linemen) AND a star (worst case even morg & throrg). In addition to this, the reserve players don't really help in how many players he can remove / turn which is in excess of 4-5 / half.
Finally, I realize chaos/orc teams fielding all-block/guard/mb/claw combination could probably have good chances vs this kind of team due to their 4 ST4/AV9 players. But I'm wondering if there is a way for an AGI team to fight back (in TD's). The league is mostly playing now at TV 1500-1900's, so SPP/money is not an issue.
Any ideas / experiences / solutions to games with similar teams are welcome. |
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Hogshine
Joined: Apr 04, 2007
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Feb 11, 2009 - 14:41 |
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| Carnis wrote: | | Fouling was nerfed so that you get ejected on doubles on both Armor AND Injury rolls (efectively 18% or 30,5% depending on do you penetrate - making fouling of high AV players extremely risky). The additional +1 to armor roll for fouling was removed, and Dirty player skill was nerfed to only give +1 to Armor or Injury checks. This is slightly compensated by getting a sneaky git player, but only works if you don't penetrate. |
I don't agree with this part, particularly that fouling high av players is risky, if anything it's less risky as assuming you don't beat armour it's the same chance as with LRB4 without the eye. LRB 5 makes fouling every turn a more worthwhile strategy.
However, with respect to the rest of your post, I would think that skills such as wrestle, fend, grab etc might help. I don't have much (any) experience of playing Elves, and I have little experience of playing LRB 5 at all (only one tourney, and a few games offline), but it seems like there are a lot of skills focussed at creating space for teams. Use fend to keep the dwarves from being able to follow up their blocks, wrestle to knock down guarders and to help create spaces in the dwarf line for your players to run through. Use Fend in a similar manner.
Also, for the trollslayer problem, I would try to bait him with a wrestle/SS player (possibly dodge if he doesn't have tackle, but maybe leave it off to tempt him more...) then SS away from his support to try to isolate the slayer, then if he uses piling on, arrange a gang foul. If he doesn't, then block/blitz and gang foul. I don't know if that gives you great odds, but at least you should be able to stun the guy and help keep players on the pitch. |
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xcver
Joined: Mar 10, 2005
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| Posted:
Feb 11, 2009 - 14:45 |
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Upon my experience (we have an IRL league with 15 players) Dwarves can be beat just as fine as the rulebooks before you don't need one-turning to do so.
Maybe you should start packing fend cause then frenzy won't work and Piling On only if you went down on the pow/skull result... |
_________________
"Power without perception is virtually useless and therefore of no true value!" - Ryouken - Master of the Hokuto no Ken Martial Arts |
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SkatKat
Joined: Jan 27, 2004
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Feb 11, 2009 - 14:49 |
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Well, primarily you should prevent him forming his cage - by using kick, putting the ball deep and going around his line if possible. That put aside a combination of fend/dodge/block/wrestle could help 
Fend makes PO impossible to use - the others may help you stay on your feet, finally keeping him to one blitz pr. turn is of course a must  |
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Carnis
Joined: Feb 03, 2009
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Feb 11, 2009 - 15:26 |
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Quick reply for the first few comments:
Hogshine:
Fouling without the EYE in LRB4.0 with dirtyplayer (assume armor is broken): Chance of casualty 41,6% chance of DP getting sent off by ref 18%.
Fouling in LRB 5.0 with dirty player (assume armor is broken): Chance of casualty 27,7% chance of getting sent off by the ref 30,55%. I know which I'd choose.
That being said, with dirtyplayer & sneaky git vs effective AV6 you only get 18,5% chance of CAS with 19% chance of being ejected, on top of that almost 12% chance of KO vs thick skull I think mass fouling is one of the most tangible strategies to counter MB/Piling on players.
Xcver:
I realize we may not play optimally, but just to be sure, do your league's dwarves also employ MB/Piling on trollslayers and only blitz with them to remove players?
Generally, spamming Fend seems like a worthwhile option. However, that is easy enough to counter by blitzing those who don't have fend (+ fend is pretty useless against non Frenzy/PO opponents and getting 11 fend players is 220k and probably costs you about 11 block/wrestles/dodges which are worth more vs non-dwarves). Additionally wrestle/fend are both countered in blitzes by juggernaut-skill which a trollslayer can get on a non-doubles roll (he doesn't have it yet, but us taking 11/22 skills to be countered by 1 seems counterintuitive). I guess surrounding both the trollslayers with fends could be done with 4-5 fends really. Finally fend alone won't help as he still gets to pile on with a Pow/Skull and then you're committing 4-5 players for block/fend just to counter 2 guys (and probably giving him a wizard in inducements). And while you commit your 5 players to anti-trollslayer duty you are all the while dodging away from the anti-antitrollslayer duty performed by his tackle/block/guard spamming blockers.
Anyway we're probably looking at this from the wrong angle, hence the opening post!
Finally keeping it to just 1 blitz / turn and still playing to defend against the ball gets harder the less you have players, when your linemen get surrounded by dwarves with block/tackle/guard. |
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harvestmouse
Joined: May 13, 2007
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Feb 11, 2009 - 15:41 |
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The simple answer here is you aren't looking at the big picture,just individual points..........which of course won't work.
The big picture I'd say it's slightly better. Yes there are more injuries, but injuries count for less. |
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xcver
Joined: Mar 10, 2005
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Feb 11, 2009 - 15:45 |
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| Carnis wrote: | Xcver:
I realize we may not play optimally, but just to be sure, do your league's dwarves also employ MB/Piling on trollslayers and only blitz with them to remove players?
Generally, spamming Fend seems like a worthwhile option. However, that is easy enough to counter by blitzing those who don't have fend (+ fend is pretty useless against non Frenzy/PO opponents and getting 11 fend players is 220k and probably costs you about 11 block/wrestles/dodges which are worth more vs non-dwarves). Additionally wrestle/fend are both countered in blitzes by juggernaut-skill which a trollslayer can get on a non-doubles roll (he doesn't have it yet, but us taking 11/22 skills to be countered by 1 seems counterintuitive). I guess surrounding both the trollslayers with fends could be done with 4-5 fends really. Finally fend alone won't help as he still gets to pile on with a Pow/Skull and then you're committing 4-5 players for block/fend just to counter 2 guys (and probably giving him a wizard in inducements). And while you commit your 5 players to anti-trollslayer duty you are all the while dodging away from the anti-antitrollslayer duty performed by his tackle/block/guard spamming blockers. |
MB/PO is strong here as well. But Juggernaut is not very widespread and normally used on Frenzy big guys (dunno why I would want to blitz with them though).
I also think fend is quite worthwile against all sorts of players. Advancing a cage against fend equipped players is harder because the loss of 1 movement is bad for the dwarves. if you are reckless you can even send in 2 fend players to stand against two cage players, meaning that even when they are knocked down those cage players will not advance. I found that dwarves have a horrible time advancing against any combination of fend and or side step. Also Piling On will usually result in even more bad positioning as if it's used one player is missing for the formation of the screen. |
_________________
"Power without perception is virtually useless and therefore of no true value!" - Ryouken - Master of the Hokuto no Ken Martial Arts |
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Catalyst32
Joined: Jul 14, 2008
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Feb 11, 2009 - 16:34 |
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Sounds like a very skilled Dwarf Coach. I would be very eager to play that slate of AV7 and AV8 teams.
Maybe some of you guys should just play other Basher teams. Counter him with better ST and AV.
Does he ALWAYS receive in the first half? Perhaps you should receieve.
Try to score in 3 or 4 turns... not 2 (if possible). Get your TD at full strength.
Tactically Foul 1 or 2 times. Praise Nuffle repeatedly or not at all whichever seems to work.
Set up to defend in a viable defense that will allow you to run down either Sideline if he doesn't spread out.
Kick down the sideline with the least players with AG3.
DO NOT out kick your own players MA.
Hope to roll Blitz or for a failed pickup ball.
Pressure the ball with 3 to 5 players.
Use the other players to sepearate his LOS Units from his Ball Retrieval Units.
Divide and Conquer!
Get the ball back in 2 or fewer turns if possible and SCORE AGAIN.
If you cannot get the ball in 2 TURNS or less RUN AWAY and play an Attrition Defense.
When running away it would be a good idea to run 1 (or 2 if you can) of your players towards his endzone.
The only exceptions to this would be if you are clearly gaining the upperhand somehow you continue to press him.
Or if during that first turn he clearly establishes control of the ball in a Dominate fashion.
If you have scored in 3 TURNS and pressed him for 2 TURNS before running away he now has only 4 turns to score.
The ball should be more than half the field away from a TD.
An attrition stategy can hold for 4 turns and he may rush a bit to secure the score.
If after 2 turns of Attrition he is likely to score Hit him again.
Often this is where the player I said to have Run Away towards your opponents endzone returns.
Most people will assume your player is behind him to Catch a pass for a TD (and yes he may do that).
But he is there to provide access to the rear of the Cage or to force your opponent to pursue him.
If your opponent spends time pursueing you player to the rear of his cage he weakens his cage and that is good for you.
This player should have been keep behind the ball just out of Blitzing Range for your opponent.
Use him to attack the rear of the Cage on turn 7 hoping to knock down a Dwarf in a weak spot.
He is either the Blitzer or the Assist needed to make this work.
You want this attempt to put a TZ on the Runner nothing more.
The goal is to force the cage to react to a breach that spreads it out or causes a turnover.
Your other Elves will TZ as many other Dwarves as they can to prevent their movement.
As much as possible try to get solo on each Dwarf avoiding their help from Guards.
If this turn is successful the Dwarves will burn a whole turn and you should hold them out of the endzone. |
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Carnis
Joined: Feb 03, 2009
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Feb 11, 2009 - 21:27 |
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Ok let me rephrase the problem a bit. What catalyst32 says about the playing higher AV teams to counter his bashiness is probably true (although, I wonder if even a LRB5.0 chaos team has any chance at all at keeping their players on the field with the advantage in guards/mb/AV/Frenzy/Thickskull). Countering his AV requires tier3 beastmen (with Block/Guard/Claw). This leaves orcs, which none have really felt as an interesting team (but guess what's the dwarf coach's 2nd team?).
He plays something like this:
FF 9 (can't give away FF) - 90k
Rerolls 3 - 150k
Apothecary (used to heal Badly hurt players as works 100% for those). - 50k
6 Blockers, 420k
2 Blitzers, 160k
2 Runners, 160k
2 Trollslayers 180k
Skills he had for the last league final which he won (Td's 1-0, CAS 5-1): 6x Guard (120k), 4x Mighty Blow (80k), 2x Piling On (40k), 2x Block (40k), Kick (20k), Leader (20k), Diving Tackle (30k).
Total cost of the team: Around 1 560 0000 (higher nowdays)
During the league he fields 11 players and about 400k gold in cash, whilst during the tournament he buys a 12th player to use as reserve for the potential 3rd half.
His inducement preference is wizard followed by boomer & the other 60k secret weapon player which he uses for bombing and turn 6-8 fouling.
We have no problem stopping his advance 11vs11. The problem comes when inevitably you lose some of your AV8/AV7 linemen (usually on turn1 from the LOS). He doesn't usually cage up tight. He puts the runner between 2 guard blockers and spends the remaining 8 players tieing up defense / bashing (especially big guys/st4 players/guards).
After spending about 4-5 turns bashing your team you are usually left with 8 players or less, and it becomes increasingly difficult to stop both his runners from reaching the endzone by turn 8 (as they can reasonably easily score from 8 squares away).
Now the problem is his TV-control (a hot subject in [b] as I see). His team doesn't field 16 dwarves, nor any useless skills/loner deathrollers etc. All his skills work 100% vs our squishy agi-teams, whereas our dodges are all but useless vs him (already 4 dodges gives him half a wizard in inducements). Finally he doesn't need reserve players as he gets one from apothecarying the first badlyhurt + the high general AV value of his team effectively means he already has 2 spare players with his 12man team and he barely ever needs more. To top it all LRB5.0 + experimental rules give inducements even in the finals. |
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funnyfingers
Joined: Nov 13, 2005
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Feb 11, 2009 - 22:01 |
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I think the problem is that there are no bashy teams to keep him in check. Even in LRB4, if all dwarves ever played was AV7, then they'd almost never lose players. If just one team was bashy, there is a better chance that the Troll Slayers wouldn't be able to develop as easily as they would have a better chance of being injured. The rule set seems fine, your league just needs more variety. |
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HouseT
Joined: Nov 07, 2005
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Feb 12, 2009 - 03:47 |
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funnyfingers is onto part of it. One bashy team amongst a soft set of others is bound to dominate a good deal of the time, especially if fielded by a good coach.
The only alternative to trying to match power to power (and I hate to suggest this) is to cheap and commit to fouling. One team doing this isn't bound to net a perfect result, but if all of the other teams (or even a handful) commit to going that route, then he'll lose at least a few of his hearty players.
I've run into a coach before that thought he had a major advantage with his armor and his bashing skills, and I spent the entire game fouling him. Sure, I lost, but boy did he hate playing that game. And if a few other people would have done it, too, he would have been down at least a few of those high profile/heavy skill players of his. And worst case scenario, you get caught and that player is spared being injured later on. |
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Catalyst32
Joined: Jul 14, 2008
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Feb 12, 2009 - 04:36 |
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So he doesn't rally cage then. Hmmm... that is a dilema.
I wish he was doing this on FUMBBL so I could spec his games. I'd like to USE his tactics.
I usually prefer loose cages anyway. His tactics could add a new dimension to my teams.
Have you tried placing your players behind him, to one side, and in front to try forcing him down the other sideline? Then adjusting the next turn to cut his other players off from the ball.
Then the next turn attacking the ball.
Have you tried IGNORING the ball and seeking Numerical Advantage elsewhere for 2 dice blocks and Gangfouls? Except for having losses on TURN1 you could attack him 11 on 8 and turn the tables on him. It would take a bit of luck on his Armour rolls failing... but perhaps it will keep your teams intact by limiting the damage he can dish out. Hard to hit you when he must stand up constantly.
And the entire league could commit themselves to constant fouling etc. as someone else suggested.
I'm fresh out of ideas at the moment.
I still think you should counter him by playing bashier teams than Elves and Skaven etc. |
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Carnis
Joined: Feb 03, 2009
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| Posted:
Feb 12, 2009 - 14:02 |
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I think the general consensus nowdays is just not play vs him unless your team is specifically prepared for that task (too costly in players + you lose anyway).
We're using the dwarf team as a benchmark now - if a team can beat the dwarves 50% of the time it can't be all that bad. Haven't seen it happen yet. As for the hitting back part, we are getting some more chaotic teams in which will employ both fouling & mighty blow/claw big guys players entering the league. The new system has improved fouling if you can get inducement bribes (cancel's a ref call on 2+) especially underworld, who can get 3 bribes for 150k and has skaven linemen with G access for foul play.
Agi teams are stacking up on dirty player / sneaky git but as it's 16 SPP's and usually a lineman it takes a while to build up and isn't really half as spectacular as a MB/PO trollslayer. I didn't really expect a miracle solution, but thought we might be doing something really really wrong. |
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xcver
Joined: Mar 10, 2005
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| Posted:
Feb 12, 2009 - 14:32 |
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| Carnis wrote: | | The new system has improved fouling if you can get inducement bribes (cancel's a ref call on 2+) especially underworld, who can get 3 bribes for 150k and has skaven linemen with G access for foul play. |
underworld don't get the bribes at 50k in the LRB5+Experimental rules with the newest ruleset
SCRAPE THAT - mixed it up with halflings |
_________________
"Power without perception is virtually useless and therefore of no true value!" - Ryouken - Master of the Hokuto no Ken Martial Arts
Last edited by xcver on %b %12, %2009 - %14:%Feb; edited 1 time in total |
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xcver
Joined: Mar 10, 2005
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| Posted:
Feb 12, 2009 - 14:39 |
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| Carnis wrote: | | His inducement preference is wizard followed by boomer & the other 60k secret weapon player which he uses for bombing and turn 6-8 fouling. |
you mean he's buying Barik Farblast playing with him just to foul?!? sounds lika sub-optimal choice in my book.
| Quote: | Name Team/Skills Cost MA ST AG AV
Barik Farblast Dwarf 60,000 6 3 3 8
Skills Loner, Hail Mary Pass, Pass, Secret Weapon,
Strong Arm, Sure Hands, Thick Skull |
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_________________
"Power without perception is virtually useless and therefore of no true value!" - Ryouken - Master of the Hokuto no Ken Martial Arts |
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