Carnis
Joined: Feb 03, 2009
|
 Posted:
Feb 12, 2009 - 14:44 |
 
|
| xcver wrote: |
underworld don't get the bribes at 50k in the LRB5+Experimental rules with the newest ruleset |
Yes, that is true, as no link is made between the experimental ruleset and the new teams. The new ruleset also does not allow any star players for the slann team (they are only allowed for lizardmen, etc), underworld team, chaos all stars team. The only exception is Morg, who will play for "any team" except ud/khemri/necro. The new ruleset infact makes no in-rulebook-reference at all to the new teams. So, we made a "house" rule, allowing the slann/underworld/chaos allstars to be incorporated as per the latest ruleset where they still were (the 2008 changes). Finally we also allowed slann/chaos allstar/underworld teams to use the stars allowed in their teamlist, even though the rulebook clearly states the said stars will not play for these teams.
I'd be surprised if the Bribe thingie doesn't fall through when they finally do make the underworld team official. But remains to be seen.
Edit: Yes, barik farblast if he gets 270k inducements (rare). Normally just boomer and/or wizard. Wiz gives him a very good chance at getting a 2nd offence and boomer gives a rather reliable 2nd blitz or a free foul every turn (bombing prone players). It's probably sub-optimal to hire barik, but any player who is anyway going to be thrown off the pitch at the end of the round is good for fouling. He can naturally be used for assisting / caging before that with his dwarvishly "high" MA6. The only other choice is bloodweiser babe, which is always a good choice vs bashy teams. |
|
|
GalakStarscraper
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
|
| Posted:
Feb 12, 2009 - 17:02 |
|
|
pac
Joined: Oct 03, 2005
|
| Posted:
Feb 12, 2009 - 17:22 |
|
| Carnis wrote: | | I'm at a loss here, as to how any agility team is supposed to compete with post LRB5.0 dwarf teams after the changes to 1) piling on skill 2) new harsher fouling rules and 3) the inducement system 4) one turn TD'ing is now relatively hard for all (woodies lost a MA on their catcher [in LRB5.0+experimental], VLL no longer gives + MA to any gutter rolling doubles). |
Piling On means they will be doing a bit more damage, okay, but for the rest ...
You do not need to rely on fouling or one-turning to beat dwarves with an agility team in LRB 4. So both of those points represent no change.
For inducements, if his team is the one smashing everything in the league, shouldn't it be you who is getting the inducements?
No, I think the old methods for beating dwarves will still apply.
I see that you haven't played all that many games here yet, so my advice would be: make some elves (or whatever you prefer to use) here; play them against dwarves; a lot; play them against other bashers too; spec and watch replays of coaches who are good with agility teams against bashers (they are fun to watch too); read some general threads about using elf-types against bashers (you'll find plenty of good links in the tactics forum); keep playing, keep learning. The vast majority of what you learn will be transferrable to LRB5/6 and to table-top. In time, you're wondering why you were ever having so much trouble against the guy. |
|
|
MasterMag
Joined: May 31, 2008
|
| Posted:
Feb 12, 2009 - 17:41 |
|
If you're playing skaven/humans you always see to it you have enough cash to buy a starplayer with chainsaw against him, with skaven you get the ball&chain too. Those guys are great at slicing dwarves up, and with only 1 replacement he'll be far less deadly.
If you have several players with that option against him he'll be far more managable...
If you're playing elves etc it's harder, but if you develop your team to only face other squishies it'll be hard when the basher comes, and I think that's a big part of the problem in your league.
But the tips earlier works best for me vs dwarves, stack up wrestle before block as a rule, it'll be hard on him in the long run if you have lots of them on the field.
Fend is also a very underrated skill, used with care it can really put bumps in his game.
Other than that, just do all you can to force him to reacting to you rather than doing his standard team-destroying game, ignore the ball, let him form his cage to protect the ball/if he doesn't cage, he'll probably have at least 2-3 players on guard duty. When he's comitted players to the ball, try to single out and destroy dwarves as mentioned above, do all you can to try to force him to score fast, foul like a madman, gang up etc...that might give you time to try a 1-2t td when he recieves at least some matches. |
|
|
Frankenstein
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
|
| Posted:
Feb 12, 2009 - 17:54 |
|
Linedorfs simply shouldn't start with tackle, problem solved. |
|
|
pac
Joined: Oct 03, 2005
|
| Posted:
Feb 12, 2009 - 17:57 |
|
I will make some specific points though. 
First of all, as a collective, your league is making this guy's life easy by not having a proper mix of teams. The nearest thing you have to something bashy is Ogres - and these are not to be likened to LRB 4 Ogres. You don't even have any Orcs! What kind of BB league is this? 
I need to say at this point: this is not to imply that agility teams cannot beat Dwarves. They certainly can. But the fact that he only plays soft opposition allows him to specialise his skill choices. You say he only has a squad of 12: that would backfire a lot more often if he met bashy opponents. You say he uses his doubles on Diving Tackle: he might have to rethink that if there were more teams around that didn't have to dodge away from him. His main TV investment seems to be in his elf-squishing Troll Slayers: these would be of significantly less value against teams he can't just push around all match.
Note that the same problem could arise in reverse. Put a good elf coach in a league full of Orcs, Dwarves, Chaos, Undead, and they will run riot, because the skills those bashers have to take to compete against one another are of much less use against the elves.
So, a good collective approach is to sort this out. Ideally, in fact, put it into the rules of your league. Split the rosters into three or four categories (based on bashiness, etc), and say that the teams participating in the league must come evenly from these groups. No one should be forced to switch, just volunteers, but new people coming in should not generally be allowed to bring even more elves. This may seem a heavy-handed approach, but the quality and enjoyability of matches can be expected to improve a lot for all concerned.
I'll post something more on tactics in a moment ... |
|
|
Carnis
Joined: Feb 03, 2009
|
| Posted:
Feb 12, 2009 - 18:00 |
|
Galak, we do indeed have the documents you linked which do indeed state those stars are allowed & we have been using them as is.
However the actual LRB5.0+experimental ruleset you published separately makes no mention of any of those 3 new teams. This means the starplayer list in LRB 5.0+experimental has no affinities to the said teams (hence, if we do play by the book the stars like quetzal leap [Lizardmen only] shouldn't play for the experimental teams - right?).
This is a bit of a stretch, but since you probably know the answer galak: Was 50k bribes for Underworld teams intentionally left out from both documents?
Also why did titchy +1 to landing never make it to the rules..? Haven't ogres seen enough nerfing 
***
pac: I don't see the problem at all with the FUMBBL ruleset. You have 2 extreme differences between LRB 4 & LRB 6.
1) Fouling is an extremely effective (some even call it lame) way of evening the odds in Agi vs St (42% to CAS vs 18% to sent off without the eye). This means piling on is rarely used (extremely hazardoes to go down on purpose). Whereas in the new ruleset barring sneakygit/DP's the safest place is indeed in the ground.
2) Piling on only works in armor checks here (the real CAS-makers are claw/rsc with their +2+2 but you need two doubles for that + still won't have block/frenzy, for which you will need a third double).
In LRB 6 however, your average AV7 skaven linerat facing MB/piling on trollslayer has a 95% chance of being knocked over and 41% chance of taking 2 injury checks with +1 from the combination of piling on/mighty blow. If you count all the cases it goes to whopping 26%-31% chance of a casualty/58%-50% chance of knockout depending on does your opponent reroll knockouts or not. For reference, the cas chance with mighty blow alone to AV7 is 14,3% with 31% chance of a knockout or worse.
Edit: He usually (not always) gets inducements vs advanced teams by keeping his TV low on purpose (0-1 reserve players, leader replacing a 50k rr, don't take "useless" ag/ma/av stat incs etc). New teams ofc get inducements, but new teams have no chance vs efficient dorf playerhunting anyway. |
Last edited by Carnis on %b %12, %2009 - %18:%Feb; edited 1 time in total |
|
pac
Joined: Oct 03, 2005
|
| Posted:
Feb 12, 2009 - 18:19 |
|
| Quote: | | His strategy is simple enough really. Both trollslayers take MB/Piling/Guard. All longbeards (renamed Blockers in LRB5) take Guard/MB or MB/Guard. All blitzers take Guard/MB. Doubles go on diving tackle. Runners take Block/Kick etc. Runner picks up the ball, guards surround him and he already has sure hands so leaping play is out for strip ball wood elf/slann coaches. |
"Runner picks up ball, guards surround him" - just like that? It works all the time? How deep do those Guards start that they're always available to protect the Runner after he grabs the ball? What happens when his pick-up fails? (If it never does, steal his dice for your dodges.  )
You're all playing relatively fast teams in this league. You need to be kicking deep and putting him under pressure as soon as possible. It is impossible to form an unbreakable cordon all the way across the pitch. Kick the ball deep, make a gap and chase it! Separate those eagerly bashing dwarves on the halfway line from the runner and his friends and make it hard for the two groups to link up.
You've said that you can stop him on his drives when it's 11vs11. That's not enough! The guy doesn't even cage. You should be scoring on his drives.
| Quote: | | our dodges are all but useless vs him |
Not from what I'm reading. Only his Blockers start with Tackle and, from what you say, his other players don't take it. He only has 6 Blockers and there's every chance he only fields 5 of those a lot of the time. A few points from this then:
Dodge is not a 20K skill. Against no Tackle, it's far better than that. So, half the opponent's players having Tackle just brings Dodge down to about the level of other good skill choices, it doesn't make it worthless.
Critically, he doesn't have Tackle (from what you say) on his Troll Slayers. So, as long as you have Dodge on your best players, you force him to choose: blitz a good player with someone (a Blocker) less likely to cause damage, or use the TS on some rookie?
In addition, it's his slowest players that have Tackle. By spreading out and kicking deep you will stretch his team, and this will minimise the involvement of those slowest players in those key areas where the game will be decided. (Needless to say, your own best players, with Dodge, will be in those key areas, every time.)
Finally, I'm reading a lot about his drives, and not much about yours against him. That makes me think that he's being allowed to spend too much time on offence.
Your own offence is the perfect time to stretch the play out, and show up the Dwarves' low movement as the massive disadvantage it is. Don't score fast, move the ball around and use up time making him chase it. Yes, he'll be beating up your players in the mean time - he'd be doing that on his drive too, only with even more control over it! Worries about more players getting hit should never affect your decision about when to score (unless you already have the win in the bag).
You said that you can usually stop his drives 11vs11. If your own offence is not too quick, that means you should usually be able to get at least a draw, as he just won't have enough time to score twice. If you can then add the occasional steal for a TD or two on his drives, you'll start seeing plenty of victories. |
|
|
pac
Joined: Oct 03, 2005
|
| Posted:
Feb 12, 2009 - 18:25 |
|
| Carnis wrote: | pac: I don't see the problem at all with the FUMBBL ruleset. You have 2 extreme differences between LRB 4 & LRB 6.
... |
I'm fully aware of the factors you mention. They mean more damage, yes, but I don't think they're that significant compared to overall coaching issues which are fully transferrable between 4 and 5/6. For example, a Slayer on the ground is a Slayer only moving 2 squares next turn. For Dwarves, who are slow in the first place, that is a significant cost - if their opponent is putting them under pressure.
Now, if you can demonstrate that you can regularly beat Dwarves with elves in LRB 4 (without OTS or fouling), and you still say that you have trouble with this guy's team, I might believe you that there is an LRB5/6-specific problem. |
|
|
Mr_Foulscumm
Joined: Mar 05, 2005
|
| Posted:
Feb 12, 2009 - 19:04 |
|
Clock management when you have the ball is THE most important aspect of playing vs Dorfs. The longer you have the ball the less time he will have to counter. Trying to win by bashing when you have no bash will not work. Play to your strengths, high mobility and ball movement. On defense try and but pressure on his ball carrier whenever you can. Forcing him to blitz backwards with his slow team and he will soon run out of time and have to open up his cages and play more risky if he wants to score. |
_________________
Everybody's favorite coach on FUMBBL |
|
Catalyst32
Joined: Jul 14, 2008
|
| Posted:
Feb 12, 2009 - 19:58 |
|
| Frankenstein wrote: | | Linedorfs simply shouldn't start with tackle, problem solved. |
That would make it so that Dwarves have NO SHOT at beating high AG teams. Maybe if Dwarves got some +MA or +AG to help it would still be balanced.
For example MA 5 Longbeards or maybe 4 Blitzers. |
|
|
Catalyst32
Joined: Jul 14, 2008
|
| Posted:
Feb 12, 2009 - 20:09 |
|
Listen to PAC... read the sticky tactics thread about playing bashers with Elves.
Challenge MY Dwarves (I am rubbish with them)... and other Dwarves with your Baller teams.
Dwarf coaches WILL NOT turn you down... You will LEARN to beat Dwarves, your CR will go down... You will be able to join 145 Leagues to test out playing styles and teams...
(I do that... currently working on Dwarves)... Get more experience HERE to dominate your league.
Install a DRAFT for your league to encourage better balance of team types.
Enforce a 1-1-1 rule for Bashers-Ballers-Betweeners as per NWL rules.
High AG teams can make a Dwarf team look foolish with the right tactics.
I've been on BOTH sides of that. Dwarves KICK BUTT but they MUST dominate the game.
If your control the game Dwarves are TERRIBLE. |
|
|
Carnis
Joined: Feb 03, 2009
|
| Posted:
Feb 18, 2009 - 22:35 |
|
| Frankenstein wrote: | | Linedorfs simply shouldn't start with tackle, problem solved. |
The irony is, he's been whining for some time now how useless the tackle skill is for a linedorf (makes them too expensive, apparently the blitzers should have it)!
Anyway, he changed to orcs now so the dorf problem is solved for now (it's harder to set up the same kind of killing frenzy with orcs (Block/Frenzy/MB/PO/Guard), but once it's on it might be tougher to counter with all that ST4/5). |
|
|
Lomack
Joined: Jun 25, 2008
|
| Posted:
Mar 11, 2009 - 18:23 |
|
The dwarf coach sounds like the best coach in the league.
Playing teams with high proportion of dodge all the time makes his tackle actually worth something perhaps more often than is assumed in the cost of a dwarf blocker. - So league composition skew again. League composition is in fact vital. If he played a league full of only orcs - it would be terrible - his blockers would be overpriced.
Dwarves are not an invincible team - I think in LRB4 they are a bit underpowered at the higher TR (e.g vs Orcs) - and Piling on is atrocious. Glad its been buffed in LRB5 to compensate for being on the floor and having no tackle zone - in LRB4 more often than not with your opponent about to get up and blitz your ball carrier. I feel LRB5 has fixed dwarves also by giving some viable 3rd skills (e.g wrestle) for the team's highly skilled up rookie blockers. |
|
|
Koigokoro
Joined: Sep 29, 2005
|
| Posted:
Mar 11, 2009 - 20:44 |
|
Marking a PO/frenzy Juggernaut player with a Wrestle/Fend is still ok as you need to blitz with the guy to use Juggernaut. If the opponent will waste his blitz in a placed named by you, you're doing quite well. |
|
|
|
|
| |
Gnome Roster - how a...
Search
