| Poll |
| Would you like to see the Night Goblin Squig Herder team in stunty? |
| Yes! The sooner the better! |
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64% |
[ 34 ] |
| No! I'll tell you why below. |
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26% |
[ 14 ] |
| I am a git with no sense of fun and Stunty Leeg offends me. |
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9% |
[ 5 ] |
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| Total Votes : 53 |
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BunnyPuncher
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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 Posted:
Dec 01, 2003 - 02:38 |
 
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Why not just give the hoppers no hands... lord knows i wouldnt try to ride a rabid spike covered kangaroo without two hands firmly on the reins  |
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cataphract
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
Dec 01, 2003 - 02:58 |
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then they're just squigs |
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Twahn
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
Dec 01, 2003 - 03:37 |
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You ever ridden a kangaroo, Bunny? With a bit of practice, you don't need no reins (not that I've ever tried picking up a footy from the back of one...)  |
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cataphract
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
Dec 01, 2003 - 04:22 |
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yeah, they got puckes tho... good for storing a footy |
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EvolveToAnarchism
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
Dec 15, 2003 - 02:11 |
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I like the roster. It's unique and simple. But none the less, I think it could be tweaked just a little bit.
Night Goblin Squig Herders (More Mayhem)
0-16 Squig Herders 6 2 3 7 Stunty, right stuff, dodge, thrall (A) 40,000
0-4 Squigs 5 4 4 7 OFAB, Pogo, RSF, No Hands, Really Stupid (G, A) 70,000
0-2 Squig Hoppers 5 4 3 7 OFAB, Pogo, RSF (G, A) 90,000
70k Rerolls
A few comments on each of the positions:
0-16 Squig Herders 6 2 3 7 Stunty, right stuff, dodge, thrall (A) 40,000
A good base stunty. Adding thrall is a simple way to represent the squig herder. Much more elegant than Poison Dagger, netters and all the other uneeded complexity.
0-4 Squigs 5 4 4 7 OFAB, Pogo, RSF, No Hands, Really Stupid (G, A) 70,000
I slowed them down to M5. They can still move 9 with Pogo, so it's not like they are slow. G, A access may seem like a bit much. But you've got tons of choices: Block, Dodge, Sure Feet, and Tackle are all tempting first skill choices. Wth AV7 will they survive to get all 4? I'd like to give them Big Guy but that limits their Mayhem way too much. Think of the RRs as some masterful squig herding by the herder helping with the RS roll. Still it's got a 25% chance of not doing what you want (unless you burn a precious RR). And I almost forgot about the penalty roll (16%)
0-2 Squig Hoppers 5 4 3 7 OFAB, Pogo, RSF, Bone Head (G, A) 90,000
I like the idea of Squig Hoppers offering a different playing style in stunty. Big Guys who score. The old version still had the 25% chance of not doing what you want with help. Bone Head makes sense because it's got a rider. AG4 isn't needed to make hopping a viable option (pogos do it), Bonehead, OFAB and AG3 would make using him as a leaping ball carrier risky (and mayhemful). It addresses one of the biggest concerns that people have with the roster. This is flavourful and balancing. You've got a guy who can Move 9 hexes with the ball but you are taking your chances... sounds alot like TTM to me.
Edited to include Twahn's insight
Conclusion:
I think the roster will add something unique to stunty: Difficult squig management decisions: Dare I give the ball to the hopper? How do I manage my herders to make those ST4 blocks into ST5 ones? To bite or not to bite? Do I save anything for the 2nd half? Do I start all my squigs and burn all my RRs right away?
Sounds like lots of fun. I'd love to see it implemented as it is loaded with mayhem and seems reasonably balanced. The gnomes and fairies aren't completely balanced but are in the Leeg and still being tweaked. I hope Klipp will do the same with this roster and that people don't complain too much when the team gains or loses something to fine tune the balance issues.
Evo |
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Last edited by EvolveToAnarchism on %b %15, %2003 - %02:%Dec; edited 1 time in total |
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Twahn
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
Dec 15, 2003 - 02:34 |
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I still can't see, personally, what the big deal is with giving the Squigg Hopper 3 AG. Do you really want to see long bombs from one Hopper to the other? With their faultless Agility, they'll rule the field, even with no rerolls.
The Gob Pogo manages with 3 AG, so saying you need 4 AG to make hopping a viable option is nonsense.
I say, give them back the reroll, make them Boneheads to agree with the existing Squigs (their Really Stupid is the same as a bonehead when considering that the rider is always present to lend a helping brain).
Why does a Goblin on top of a Squig have better ball handling abilities than he would if he was on his own two feet? What is he, a Super Goblin?
It's silly, at least if you give them the same AG it is almost sensible and the Squig can still bounce around as well as the only Official Pogo. Heck, he's got a Gob weighing him down... |
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cataphract
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
Dec 15, 2003 - 02:51 |
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I still see problems with "a big guy who can score" especially when it has access to block and dodge!
this team, through my testing of the original roster, seems terribly imbalanced due mostly to the hoppers! They can do EVERYTHING! they can bash, dodge pick up the ball and move like lightning they are a very low risk position for the stunty league and, from my experience playing with them, are broken!
Not to mention that Night Goblins need fanatics! Fabnatics are a defining element of the night goblin fluff, the fact that there are rules for them that exist officially and yet one doesn't want to include them in a night goblin roster seems astounding!! |
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Mr-Klipp
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
Dec 15, 2003 - 03:09 |
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The point of the ag4 squig hoppers is to replace the TTM with something else that allows for interesting scoring options.
I have no intentions of adding just another basher team to stunty, this is why the new proposed roster with just squigs and fanatics has no chance of happening. If you still have such a conceptual problem with night goblins that don't have fanatics, note that this is the "Night Goblin Squig Herder Team". Stunty Leeg does not need another "We can't score but we sure can kill" team, and it isn't going to get one.
The idea in adding a new team is to open up new possibilities of play. This team does that, and the penalty rolls, OFAB, and inability to use rerolls prevents things from becoming unbalanced. Yes, the ag4 allows you to make a long bomb between squig hoppers. However, lets look at that for a minute.
First off, you only have 2 squig hoppers with av of only 7, you probably won't be able to keep 2 around for the whole game, and that is before you consider penalty rolls. In order to pull that long bomb off you need to make 2 ofab rolls, a pickup roll, a 5+ pass roll, and then a catch roll. All without rerolls.
Even after all that, it's not a one turn score, the squig hopper has to have ended the previous turn in the opposing side of the field to even be in scoring range, and unlike the elven 2 turn score, there is only one potential reciever for your enemy to worry about targeting.
Compare all that to the odds of a TTM play and then tell me it still seems unbalanced. |
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EvolveToAnarchism
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
Dec 15, 2003 - 03:30 |
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The long bomb discussion has got me thinking. Shouldn't the Squig Hopper have stunty? Afterall, he would be the one throwing the ball. It also makes sense that the Squig Hopper is easier to hurt. What happens to the poor goblin riding it when the squig gets knocked over? You could also represent the Squig Hopper with ST3 (reprenting that it is easier for their opponents to drag the gobbo down from his mount). Once you take out the rider, the Squig jumps wildly into the crowd. Kind of like the calvary rules in WHFB. It also makes sense to for skill advancement, it really is the rider who has the skill. This also could be used to justify removing AG access from the normal Squigs if needed.
Conclusion: There are lots of options for the stat profile of the
Squig Hopper: M4-6 ST3-4 AG3-4 AV7 Stunty, OFAB, Pogo, RSF, Bone Head (G, A) ?K
Surely the team can be added and appropriate adjustments made with more in Leeg playtesting? (Like the Gnomes and Fairies)
Evo |
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m0nty
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
Dec 15, 2003 - 03:48 |
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Horribly, horribly broken. It's as if you saw the rules for creating new teams and set out to break as many rules as possible. You break 4 or 5 of the 7 rules for creating Big Guys with both the squigs and squig hoppers (which MUST be Big Guys), viz:
| Quote: | # Big Guy AG+ST <= 7
# Player should have one Negative trait but not more than one. Always Hungry is fluff and does not count as having a Negative trait. You can have a Negative trait and Always Hungry at the same time.
# No Big Guy players should start with having Block, Claw, Razor Sharp Claws, or any Agility Based skills. Frenzy should only be allowed if the player also has Wild Animal.
# Players should have access to General and Strength skill (maybe Physical also)
# A team should have access to only one Big Guy unless it is has all Stunty players (2 Big Guys allowed) or all Titchy players (4 Big Guys allowed) |
Why should a coach of a squig team allow anyone other than a ST4 player to touch the ball? It's supposed to be Stunty Leeg, yet this team has six 4ST players. Am I right in thinking that the Hopper is a potential one-turn scorer, if it rolls +MA twice and takes Sprint? Fangs in Stunty makes for casualty machines... vs AV7 it's 24% chance of casualty per knockdown, and vs AV6 it's 34%. Add Piling On to that and it's insane. The roster reminds me too much of Lizardmen, without the balance that is built in to the lizzy team design - i.e. coaches of lizard teams have to concentrate on developing both their sauri and skinks, whereas squig coaches will only care about their hoppers.
The major problem with this roster is that it suffers from a problem identified elsewhere, that it is no fun coaching or playing against a team which succeeds automatically if it rolls anything other than 1, but fails horribly if it does roll 1. The game becomes less about tactics and strategy and more about waiting to see when or if those snake eyes appear.
If you want something a bit more balanced, how about the following? Jump Up breaks one of the aforementioned rules, but that's only to negate some of the WA problems. This roster puts the onus on ballcarrying squarely on the stunty linos, which is as it should be.
0-16 Squig Herders 6 2 3 7 Stunty, Right Stuff, Dodge (A) 40,000
0-4 Squigs 5 6 2 7 Ball & Chain (A) 60,000
0-2 Squig Hoppers 5 5 2 8 Wild Animal, Jump Up, Mighty Blow, Big Guy (G, S) 100,000 |
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RIPNE1
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
Dec 15, 2003 - 04:29 |
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| Quote: |
The long bomb discussion has got me thinking. Shouldn't the Squig Hopper have stunty?
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so now they always dodge on a 2+...?
| Quote: |
I have no intentions of adding just another basher team to stunty
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so instead you propose a team that has 6 str 4 RSC players, 2 of which can also handle the ball and have sufficient movement and agility to run it the length of the field. Furthermore all 6 of those players have access to General and Agility skills, meaning they can become block dodgers too, after a few games the AV7 isn't going to matter because no one will be able to kock em down!!!!
compare this to 3 st 4 RSC players with less movement, access only to general skills and no ball handling ability and 2 randomly moving players who don't have tackle zones and an 8+ penalty roll! and goblins...
it would seem that your roster is the more bashy, more than half the players on the pitch can be strength 4 with RSC and only get ejected 1:6 times! Yeah, the team operates differently and adds "new possibilities of play" because it's broken!
compare this roster with the generic goblin roster! how does 4 squigs and 2 hoppers equate to 2 trolls??
the other night goblin roster is better, it plays better, it's fun to play against and it's different to the other rosters in stunty! If this team is put into stunty, who in their right mind would play a normal goblin team?? |
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Twahn
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
Dec 15, 2003 - 04:59 |
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Now that it's been edited to include Twahn's insight ( ), I think Evo's proposal looks like the money. The Hoppers are far less dominant in the ball handling, which makes the Goblins an option and gives them a purpose on the field apart from fouling and assists.
They still hop around like crazy and chew and bite. They look to be able to turn it on with a lucky turn but aren't reliable enough to stop the mayhem! All good.
For those who need to see Fanatics in a Night Goblin team... let's just call them Squig Herders and forget the whole Night Goblin reference. That's what we're trying to do anyway, make a squig team. We don't want to limit ourselves by insisting on something that doesn't really seem necessary...
For those afraid of the Blodging Squig dominators, I suggest altering their skill access. I can't why they've got General anyway. Goblins don't have it, so who is it who's granting access to skills like Leader, Pro, and Kick... the Squig?! Maybe ST and AG is what they need? Or AG only?
It must be said though, that I have playtested these little buggers not at all, so feel free to rip me apart!  |
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Mr-Klipp
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
Dec 15, 2003 - 05:08 |
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| RIPNE1 wrote: | | Quote: |
The long bomb discussion has got me thinking. Shouldn't the Squig Hopper have stunty?
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so now they always dodge on a 2+...?
|
They already leap anywhere on a 2+ and can leap more than once in a turn. Not much change really, and it makes the less able to pass and more fragile.
| RIPNE1 wrote: |
| Quote: |
I have no intentions of adding just another basher team to stunty
|
so instead you propose a team that has 6 str 4 RSC players, 2 of which can also handle the ball and have sufficient movement and agility to run it the length of the field. Furthermore all 6 of those players have access to General and Agility skills, meaning they can become block dodgers too, after a few games the AV7 isn't going to matter because no one will be able to kock em down!!!! |
First off, there is a penalty roll for each squig. If you field them all, you are losing on average one squig per drive.
| RIPNE1 wrote: |
it would seem that your roster is the more bashy, more than half the players on the pitch can be strength 4 with RSC and only get ejected 1:6 times! Yeah, the team operates differently and adds "new possibilities of play" because it's broken! |
You tried playing it? I didn't think so. If you *had* bothered to playtest it, you would see that the OFAB on the squigs not only costs you blitzes, blocks, and otherwise but makes you injure your own players almost as often as you get to hurt the enemy players.
| RIPNE1 wrote: |
compare this roster with the generic goblin roster! how does 4 squigs and 2 hoppers equate to 2 trolls?? |
Well, lets just look at that.
The two trolls will be there for the whole game. The squigs will be kicked out at the rate of one per drive if you field them all.
The trolls have av9 and regenerate so they last damn near forever. The squigs have av7 and will die like goblins.
The trolls can throw a teammate for a last minute score. The squigs can't even hold the ball, and the hoppers have targets painted on their heads.
A troll might try and eat the odd teammate when you try and throw him. The squigs should cas at least a couple of goblins a match on average.
| RIPNE1 wrote: |
the other night goblin roster is better, it plays better, it's fun to play against and it's different to the other rosters in stunty! If this team is put into stunty, who in their right mind would play a normal goblin team?? |
Psh. It's snotlings with better snotlings, weaker trolls and marginally different pump wagons. It adds nothing and hence will not be added.
Why would someone play a normal goblin team instead of squig herders?
Much more reliable big guys.
Big guys that won't get smeared by the first opposing big guy to show up.
Not losing half of your big guy players by the end of the game due to penalty rolls.
The TTM game.
Cheaper rerolls.
Only having to worry about your goblins getting eaten if you throw them.
Those are the reasons that spring to mind first. |
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Twahn
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
Dec 15, 2003 - 05:30 |
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| Klipp wrote: | | They already leap anywhere on a 2+ and can leap more than once in a turn. Not much change really, and it makes the less able to pass and more fragile. |
Do they? |
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Mr-Klipp
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
Dec 15, 2003 - 05:51 |
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| Twahn wrote: | | Klipp wrote: | | They already leap anywhere on a 2+ and can leap more than once in a turn. Not much change really, and it makes the less able to pass and more fragile. |
Do they? |
No.  I never use leap and miscalculated. it's 3+. With that, it is better if they don't have stunty, but the proposed ones don't anyway. |
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