Carnis
Joined: Feb 03, 2009
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 Posted:
Mar 11, 2009 - 15:09 |
 
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We've got a very small but rather active tabletop league with about 70 games played during the last 6 months.
A "problem" that we've been encountering consistently in the league are CAS rates about 2-3x higher than ones reported in LRB 4.0 games in fumbbl when agi teams are facing off vs st teams. The problem comes from Mighty Blow/ Piling on heavy teams (3-5 players even), which focus only on player removal/injury using every chance to block/blitz & go prone for AV/injury rerolls.
After the 70 games ag-ag matchups have gone about 50-50. St matchups are rarer but rather even ~50-50. St-ag matchups always go to the stronger (Avrg AV/ST-access wise) team. The most absurd games have even gone from score 2-0 AG player's start going to a 2-3 loss after fielding 2 players or less for the last 3 kickoffs.
The problem is further expanded by removal of aging, so higher AV players are just less likely to ever retire, whereas the loser of the ST-AG player may be facing off 5-8 CAS with a 33% chance of lasting injury or death each. Of course there are major coaching issues, with a majority of the league being amateur (by fumbbl standards). But the CAS-masters are just as amateur, and even the toughest fumbbl coach will be hard pressed to win a 5vs11 game.
I thought it was a dwarf-specific issue and did a thread about it here: http://fumbbl.com/index.php?name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=15470
But it's really a general ST vs AG matchup issue. Is there a way to build a LRB5+ agi team that will compete with even odds against an all out MB/piling focused ST team made of orcs, dwarves, chaos dwarves or even chaos if played right? Supposedly the same problem comes from claw/rsc players in LRB4.0, but you'll rarely see 4-5 of those on the field in your average ST team, and LRB4.0 fouling is much much more elf-friendly (no bribes, lesser chance of ejection & IGMEOY)+ the really bashy all-AV9 teams can't get claw/RCS. I suppose the "old" LRB5.0 khemri was dominating with a combination of ST5 mummies with MB/piling on AND new fouling, but they got nerfed for it.
These strats have been tried:
1) Hit back, take free blocks with 2-1 by dodging in assists. You eventually lose due to lack of AV & MB/PO (your cas chance: 2.8%/pow vs his 27%/pow).
2) Run, steal the ball & score, you do ok, until you run out of players (From blitzes, free blocks for tieing up players, failed ball retrievals & kick-off LOS losses).
3) Foul mb/po players back, you eventually run out of DP's which get targetted by blitzes or ejected before the opponent runs out of his MB/PO players who never get ejected for removing players. Besides MB/PO is more effective than mass fouling anyway.
4) Stay down, let him score. You usually end up losing the game 2-1 style, but your team will be ok.
Is our league *really* that unique, or are there other leagues with mb / piling on massing teams dominating now or in the past?
Have people in general witnessed the problem described above at all? Any good advice? |
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Stinkytroll
Joined: Oct 05, 2007
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Mar 11, 2009 - 15:14 |
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I love hearing this. <3 Warms my cold, cold heart.  I don't really have anything to offer in the way of advice here. But it just makes me hope that in the end, all the coaches that are clamoring for LRB 5 to be implemented to get what they are asking for. |
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harvestmouse
Joined: May 13, 2007
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Mar 11, 2009 - 15:18 |
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From what I've heard, cas rates do seem to be higher in LRB 5, but they count for a little less. I.e. niggle isn't so bad and of course there isn't aging. So Players being retired because of injuries should be far less, balancing it out. |
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Cribbleobblepie
Joined: Dec 15, 2006
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Mar 11, 2009 - 15:23 |
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We run fairly regular tabletop leagues, but with a lot smaller number of games meaning less progression. To get 4-5 Claw/MB/Piling On players you must be talking 20-30 games played, and a pretty high focus on getting those particular players the SPP's needed. Our league would never get that many games in, we tend to run for about 14 games then a play off. After that they get 'retired' into an Open league for whenever we fancy a non-league game.
I'm surprised TV management wouldn't stop this sort of build in the first place as well? Does your league use the full inducement rules? Surely a fully tricked out killer team is weighing in around 160-170+ and giving up a lot in handicaps to most agility teams?
I'd suggest speaking to the coaches about shortening the fixtures to avoid monster team building, our league is more about the lower TV as it lends itself to tournament practice more than who can build the biggest baddest bashers. Try and remember your TV management and turn up with wizards, star players, etc as well? |
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Wreckage
Joined: Aug 15, 2004
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Mar 11, 2009 - 15:32 |
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please keep going with your imprissions... they are highly appreciated... surprising tough.... as cribble i'd like to know about the full extend of your houserules, too, tough  |
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pac
Joined: Oct 03, 2005
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Mar 11, 2009 - 15:55 |
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I'd like to reiterate some of the points from that earlier thread. To be clear, you may have found a flaw in LRB 5, but it's also quite possible that the problem is specific to the way your league is set up.
Critically, in the previous thread, there was only one seriously bashy team (the Dwarves causing the problem) in the league. The mix may have changed since, but you still say that "St matchups are rarer".
One of the most effective things you can do is take structural steps to address this by requiring that there be an even mix of teams.
This is not to say that elf teams can't beat bashers, so you should play a bashy team yourself. Rather, the point is that in a mostly elf environment, the bashers can specialise by, for example, taking lots of Tackle and Piling On at the expense of Guard.
Note that the same problem could arise in reverse. Put a good elf coach in a league full of Orcs, Dwarves, Chaos, Undead, and they will run riot, because all those bashers will have to focus on skills like Guard to be competitive against each other, and won't have enough Tackle and PO to deal with the elves.
So, a good collective approach is to sort this out. Ideally, in fact, put it into the rules of your league. Split the rosters into three or four categories (based on bashiness, etc), and say that the teams participating in the league must come evenly from these groups. No one should be forced to switch, just volunteers, but new people coming in should not generally be allowed to bring even more elves. This may seem a heavy-handed approach, but the quality of matches and competitiveness of the league as a whole can be expected to improve a lot for all concerned.
Now, if you take those steps, and establish a league where no one can afford to specialise their skill choices, and the bashers still dominate, you may be onto something - but not just yet ... |
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Grod
Joined: Sep 30, 2003
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Mar 11, 2009 - 16:21 |
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Well, my erm good advice for Carney is...
Start an Orc team.
If you can't beat 'em, join 'em! |
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clarkin
Joined: Oct 15, 2007
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Mar 11, 2009 - 16:26 |
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That's a very good idea actually, and one I've seen used to great success on many long-running leagues here on FUMBBL. Here's for example the WIL categories:
Category Rock teams (24): Dwarf (3); Chaos Dwarf (4); Orc (6); Chaos (5); Undead (3); Khemri (2).
Category Scissors teams (21): Lizardmen (7); Necromantic (4); Norse (4); Skaven (4); Nurgle (2).
Category Paper teams (25) : Dark Elf (6); High Elf (5); Wood Elf (3); Elf (1); Human (4); Amazon (6).
Category Dynamite teams (4): Ogre (2); Vampire (1); Goblin (0); Halfling (1). (no restrictions)
Basically they want about 1/3rd of the league in each of rock/scissors/paper and also a max of X of a single race. X is based on the total teams in the league but it's 7 in the above example. |
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MrSerch
Joined: Dec 03, 2007
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Mar 11, 2009 - 16:41 |
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I think u should have in mind another point: freeboters are now FREE. So if u get totally bashed up at last u'll be able to play with 11 players ur next match. Could you do this in lrb 4? no.
Not to mention DP and fouling, claw (useles vs many ag teams), no RSC...
I think lrb 5.0 is FAR less blood and more bowl than lrb 4.0
Even having said that, in general I think they are better rules.
Cheers. |
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Fama
Joined: Feb 09, 2005
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Mar 11, 2009 - 17:40 |
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Would it be a working tactic to maybe have your team be something like 8-9 good players? Maybe even less? With blodge/fend/wrestle/whatever, and just use the journeymen as cannon fodder?
Edit: Or was there a rule that you have to buy the players if you can? |
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Carnis
Joined: Feb 03, 2009
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Mar 11, 2009 - 17:43 |
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I absolutely love the new rules for table top gaming as well, since TR rating differences are less critical (making smaller playerbase than fumbbl ok). Players being removed as casualties and not due to unlucky aging rolls is more fun, although I'd like the bashier teams sometimes losing players as well. Players are easier to replace as well, as FF isn't as critical.
No we aren't using any house rules (as far as we can correctly interpret the new rulesets anyway). Pac's point is true about league balance + we have a lot of coaches playing for the heck of it with a fun tier3 team like goblins.
The league is open ended, allowing 12 games to be played per season (max 2 vs same team), but it's fairly easy to get those tier2 positional players up with mb/po especially if you play a lot of AV7 and focus on getting max CAS/TD's to your killers. We allow players to continue with their teams, most havent got past 1700's with the casualtyrates & firing of critically injured players. The problem is not that you cant start with 11 players, which you can for every game. The problem is you end up with very very few in the end of each round vs a racked up remover team. Our team ratings are around the 1400-1900, with agility teams and the now retired former league champ dwarf team at about 1800's.
The issue here is, in an open league structure where you can challenge whoever you wish and they can decline or approve as they wish, it should be fairly easy for elfbowlers to build up the dream teams to counter that mighty blow/piling on. In our league though, we aren't seeing that happen - at all.
Anyway, it's far too small a number of players for drawing any conclusions about the actual LRB 5 ruleset, hence I'm more interested if there are successful tournament players who have a more broader view of the current ruleset.
Wrestle/Fend seems like a good counter on paper, but Wrestle/Fend massing is just as expensive as mb/piling on massing. Yet it takes a longer time to develop and only works effectively against that single skill combo (and even there, not against MB), whereas mb/piling works every time you get to roll armor. |
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Khudzlin
Joined: May 24, 2007
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Mar 11, 2009 - 19:57 |
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@Crib: while niggles aren't nearly as bad in LRB5, stat decreases happen more often (relative to lasting SI), due to the change in the cas roll table
what are the proportion of bashy and agile teams in your league? like Crib said, if it's too skewed in either direction, the minority can afford to specialize against the majority |
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Lakrillo
Joined: Sep 12, 2007
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Mar 11, 2009 - 21:02 |
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I am the organiser of a league where we have had about 400 games played. although i have seen some dominance from ST teams over AG teams, i would say that it has mainly been a factor about who have coached said teams than the actual rosters themself.
And about the fend/ wrestle combo. you just need a few of those to put in the defending line that the other can hide behind. three fend-sidestep elfs will stop a dwarf cage in its tracks as they can only blitz one each round.
I think that those bashy teams need to play eachother a little more often and you would be fine. Also if there is one or two chaos/nurgle teams with claws, that could make the bashy teams a little more scared which is good for the league long term.
I wouldn't say that LRB5 is more or less bloody than LRB4, what LRB5 gives is a chance of survival even though you have a bad match, in LRB4 one game can mean retirement for a long running team, especially if it isn't as big as fumbbl where you always can find an opponent in your own size. |
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Carnis
Joined: Feb 03, 2009
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Mar 11, 2009 - 22:08 |
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| Lakrillo wrote: | I am the organiser of a league where we have had about 400 games played. although i have seen some dominance from ST teams over AG teams, i would say that it has mainly been a factor about who have coached said teams than the actual rosters themself.
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I went to your forums and checked through some 30 teams or so (I'm finnish, so my written swedish is ok) + the links in the signatures werent that hard to find .
MB / Piling on doesnt seem all that popular in your league. I found about 70+ guards/mighty blows and a total of 2 piling on players in the str teams. Neither of the Piling on players had mighty blow to go along with it either. So I'm not sure if your league experience applies here.
Ask if some of your bashier players would be willing to test it out though (mighty blow / piling on spam)? You seem to have a strong & active playerbase, so feedback should be easy enough to get. |
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Haxtor
Joined: Aug 16, 2008
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Mar 11, 2009 - 22:16 |
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Carnis I think you are still missing the point people are trying to drive home. The reason the combination of MB/PO is not as popular in Lakrillo's league is because it is more evenly based. The problem you are experiencing is due mainly to the composition of your league.
If said dwarf team with several MB/PO players had to face more Chaos/Orc/other Dwarves who built their teams with the Guard/MB combo the team without guard would get stomped. The reason this guy in your league can get by with 1-2 guards and devote himself to the MB/PO combo is because the rest of your league would have trouble outguarding him on normal rolls if you had a more balanced league he would not be able to take the same skill choices and have the same success. |
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