SzieberthAdam
Joined: Aug 31, 2008

Posted:
May 16, 2009  12:38 

Operating System
Windows XP Professional SP2
Java version (output from java version)
java version "1.6.0_06"
Java(TM) SE Runtime Environment (build 1.6.0_06b02)
Java HotSpot(TM) Client VM (build 10.0b22, mixed mode, sharing)
Bug description
Same wrong passing ranges as in JavaBBowl. The Tabletop ranges are here.
According to the rules:
Quote:  Plastic Range Ruler: The ruler is used to measure the range when a player throws the ball. When you are instructed to measure the range, place the ‘0’ at one end over the centre of the square of the player throwing the ball and the red line that runs up the middle of the ruler over the centre of the square of the player the ball is being thrown to. If the line between two passing ranges crosses any part of the receiving player’s square, then you should use the higher range. 
EDIT: Correct rangeset is here:
http://fumbbl.com/index.php?name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&p=378075#378075
And the calculations made by me are here:
http://fumbbl.com/index.php?name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&p=378152#378152 
_________________ "I love him who is ashamed when the dice fall in his favour, and who then asketh: 'Am I a dishonest player?'  for he is willing to succumb."
 Friedrich Nietzsche: Thus Spake Zarathustra, Zarathustra's Discourses, 4.
Last edited by SzieberthAdam on May 19, 2009  00:22; edited 1 time in total 

SzieberthAdam
Joined: Aug 31, 2008

Posted:
May 17, 2009  16:55 

Hmm, i digged upon this a bit, and seems that KFoged's ranges aren't the good ones either.
Most of the sources include a different but "almost" exact rangeset:
http://www.dangermouse.net/games/bloodbowl/rules.html
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Hangar/1615/range.htm
http://www.dtg.org.au/e107_plugins/forum/forum_viewtopic.php?3541
The client's rangestet seems still wrong.
To get out of this inconsistency I made the following calculations strictly according to the rules:
EDIT: Deleted due to agigng. See my post here: http://fumbbl.com/index.php?name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&p=378152#378152
All i should know is the exact size of a square of the field, and the exact dimensions of an original range ruler. Unfortunately i havent any nearby atm. I need very exact (millimeter) data.
For the pitch i recommend to measure at least 20 squares together to get the best result. Any help is welcome.
As i know the side of a fieldsquare is 1 and 1/8 inhces which should be 28.575 millimeters so theoretically 20 squares together should be 571.5 millimeters. If it is true, i still need the dimensions of the range ruler.
Cheers,
RS
Edit: For calculating the squares of interceptions, to know the width of the ruler would be useful. Thanks. 
_________________ "I love him who is ashamed when the dice fall in his favour, and who then asketh: 'Am I a dishonest player?'  for he is willing to succumb."
 Friedrich Nietzsche: Thus Spake Zarathustra, Zarathustra's Discourses, 4.
Last edited by SzieberthAdam on May 19, 2009  00:20; edited 2 times in total 

PhrollikK
Joined: Nov 04, 2006

Posted:
May 17, 2009  18:50 


SzieberthAdam
Joined: Aug 31, 2008

Posted:
May 17, 2009  20:28 

Here is the Excel file if someone is interested how the ranges are calculated:
http://rapidshare.com/files/234107773/bb_passranges.xls
Cheers,
RS 
_________________ "I love him who is ashamed when the dice fall in his favour, and who then asketh: 'Am I a dishonest player?'  for he is willing to succumb."
 Friedrich Nietzsche: Thus Spake Zarathustra, Zarathustra's Discourses, 4. 

Christer
Joined: Aug 02, 2003

I measure my ruler as follows:
2" wide
16.5" long, divided as follows:
1" Start, with the thrower window in the center (0.5" in).
4" Quick pass
4" Short pass
4" Long pass
3.25" Long bomb
0.25" Extra space
Mind you, I am using a ruler with unknown accuracy, and converting from cm to inches using some common sense. 


SzieberthAdam
Joined: Aug 31, 2008

Posted:
May 17, 2009  22:36 

According to the dimensions which was posted by Christer, and assuming that the length of a field square's side is 1 1/8 inches:
The calculations:
http://rapidshare.com/files/234144682/bb_passranges_002.xls
Fortunately the same result came out for the zero point fitting and the zero bound fitting, however according to the rules the first one should be followed.
I am 99% sure that the rangeset above is the one and only (if the dimensions are correct), but if you are good at geometrics and Excel, please check it if it's ok.
Cheers,
RS 
_________________ "I love him who is ashamed when the dice fall in his favour, and who then asketh: 'Am I a dishonest player?'  for he is willing to succumb."
 Friedrich Nietzsche: Thus Spake Zarathustra, Zarathustra's Discourses, 4. 

Grumbledook
Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Posted:
May 17, 2009  22:58 

there is a BBRC approved range chart somewhere
can use that then just have to worry about interceptions after 


uvenlord
Joined: Oct 15, 2008

Posted:
May 18, 2009  11:03 

RamonSalazar wrote:  According to the dimensions which was posted by Christer, and assuming that the length of a field square's side is 1 1/8 inches:
The calculations:
http://rapidshare.com/files/234144682/bb_passranges_002.xls
Fortunately the same result came out for the zero point fitting and the zero bound fitting, however according to the rules the first one should be followed.
I am 99% sure that the rangeset above is the one and only (if the dimensions are correct), but if you are good at geometrics and Excel, please check it if it's ok.
Cheers,
RS  i did some fieldwork with my ruler and it differs some from your calculations.
example: square x13,y3 is not a long bomb. the ending line crosses the square, not much but its at least 45 mm short of covering the whole square. (when i lay the ruler down the end of long bomb is exactly in the lower right corner of square x13,y2)
with my ruler:
square 29x29 mm
ruler 405 mm 16 inch (16.1/4 with the extra space...)not 16.1/2 as christers.
1 inch start,~4 inch each quick to long, and ~3.1/8 for the long bomb (doesn't add upp but quick to long is a little shorter then 4 inch some101 mm so...
trying to take some pictures for you to see.
i'll be back 


uvenlord
Joined: Oct 15, 2008

Posted:
May 18, 2009  11:32 

Grumbledook wrote:  there is a BBRC approved range chart somewhere
can use that then just have to worry about interceptions after  found this:



Khudzlin
Joined: May 24, 2007

Posted:
May 18, 2009  17:55 

i did some calculations and it seems to count the distance from the center of the thrower's square to the furthest corner of the receiver's square
the range upper limits (in squares) seem to be:
Quick 4
Short 7.5
Long 10.8
Bomb 13.6
dunno if it's really that, but it fits with the chart (i chose the simplest numbers for the limits, there's a bit of leeway) 


SzieberthAdam
Joined: Aug 31, 2008

Posted:
May 18, 2009  19:26 

I am done with calculating the passing ranges, i think.
To summarize:
THE GEOMETRICAL PROBLEM:
d is the distance which has to be used to calculate the range. It has 3 components as you can see on the figure. The range is the last bound which crosses the red middle line between the the start and the endpoints of distance 'd' on line 'c' ('D') ('c' representing the red middle line). You can notice that the last line with right angle to 'c' could be the last one which touches the catcher's square. This is why we should use < relation instead of <=.
THE PROBLEM OF FITTING:
There is a small difference between the dimensions of the thrower window and the field squares: According to the measures, the thrower window is 1 inch long with a zero point at it's center. The size of a field square is about 1 1/8 inches and/or 29mm (measures are differ at the moment). This means that it is not the same to fitting the zero points, or fitting the zero bound (the bound between the thrower window and the range ruler area) to the edge of the thrower (which is assumed to be an exact circle with the same size as a field square). See the figure below:
Sometimes this causes differencies in the rangeset, sometimes not. According the rules zero point fitting have to be used. At the first time i calculated with zero bound fitting, but it is corrected by now.
NOTES ON THE CALCULATIONS:
I figured out that why the inconsistency about this question. Sometimes 12mm decide between ranges. There are differences between the tabletop editions too (including the dimensions of the ruler, the pitch etc.). It seems that there is not an exact rangeset for Blood Bowl according to the printed tabletop games. There is however an original rangeset! Thanks for posting it Uvenlord!
RESULTS:
Calculating however is not a waste of time. I could ruled out some of the rangesets around the internet and other forums and managed to reduce the possible rangesets to 23 with little differences between them. I am sure that the ranges in SkyJunkie's JavaBBowl client and the actual LRB5 client made by Kalimar are wrong. I calculated the range units according to the official rangeset.
PARAMETERS OF THE OFFICIAL RANGES (Useful for programmers ):
It seems that Uvenlords dimensions are the right ones, which are 14443.125. However as i mentioned before the units of the ruler differ from the units of the field. Using my formula (i'm sure it is correct) i simulated the official rangeset and calculated the necessary parameter for the conversion.
The parameter to multiplicating the 144etc. values must between 0,8688192 and 0,8738432 thus 1/parameter must be between 1,144370065 and 1,150987455. You can see that an 1/1,145 (which is equivalent with assuming that a field square is 1,145 inches or 29,083 mm long) parameter is good for calculating with. Using my formula for 'd' with this parameter will result the official rangeset.
Here it is:
Code:  If(Or(a=0;b=0)=TRUE
then
d=Max(a;b) + 0,5
else
d=
+Sqrt(a^2+b^2)
+1/2 * Sqrt(1+b^2/a^2)
+1/2 * (1Abs(b/a)) / Sqrt(1+a^2/b^2)
Parameter is 1/1,145 representing an
1,145 inches (29,083mm) long fieldsquare.
p=0,873362445414847 = 1/1,145
Weights Bounds(p)

Ruler start 0,5 0,436681223
Zero point 0 0
0 Bound  Qp 0,5 0,436681223
Qp  Sp 4 3,930131004
Sp  Lp 4 7,423580786
Lp  LB 4 10,91703057
LB  Out 3,125 13,64628821
Ruler end 0,125 13,75545852

The bound values are all in field units aswell as 'a' and 'b' in the 'd' formula! 'a' is the horizontal distance in field squares and 'b' is the vertical.
p parameter was used to multiply the weights.
Code:  If d <= ActualBound Then LowerRange
If d > ActualBound Then HigherRange 
The ruler's width is 2 * p of course.
Everything is in the following Excel file:
RamonSalazar's Blood Bowl Passing Range Calculator and Range Ruler Designer Kit :
http://rapidshare.com/files/235275156/bb_passranges_007.xls
Cheers,
RS
Edit: @Khudzlin, your ranges are good, here are the allowed intervals:
Code:  Bound cross Bound cross
min max
0bQp 0,5 1,5
QpSp 3,794733192 4,298926521
SpLp 7,379024326 7,5
LpLB 10,78638743 10,97553024
LBOut 13,5752803 13,65384615 
I would recommend 7,4 for SpLp instead of 7,5.
My values, however, are keepeng the scale of the original range ruler, using the same dimensions. So i would recommend to use those instead of the distortioned ones
Edit2: Of course it is impossible to divide with 0, so if one of the varialbles is zero then d=Sqrt(a^2+b^2)+0,5=max(a,b)+0,5.
Edit3: For ensuring that distances are the same all around the clock the (b/a) part of the third component of 'd' must been absolutized. Typo.
Edit4: Updated the Excel file with a Range Ruler Designer feature. I am really done now. Good bye 
_________________ "I love him who is ashamed when the dice fall in his favour, and who then asketh: 'Am I a dishonest player?'  for he is willing to succumb."
 Friedrich Nietzsche: Thus Spake Zarathustra, Zarathustra's Discourses, 4.
Last edited by SzieberthAdam on May 20, 2009  19:57; edited 6 times in total 

shadow46x2
Joined: Nov 22, 2003

i can solve this problem really easily, instead of all this silly mathematics....
uvenlord wrote:  Grumbledook wrote:  there is a BBRC approved range chart somewhere
can use that then just have to worry about interceptions after  found this:

problem solved
j 
_________________
origami wrote:  There is no god but Nuffle, and Shadow is his prophet. 


SzieberthAdam
Joined: Aug 31, 2008

Posted:
May 18, 2009  19:56 

Your wisdom is endless but i wanted to help Kalimar to programming this easily.
Cheers,
RS 
_________________ "I love him who is ashamed when the dice fall in his favour, and who then asketh: 'Am I a dishonest player?'  for he is willing to succumb."
 Friedrich Nietzsche: Thus Spake Zarathustra, Zarathustra's Discourses, 4. 

Khudzlin
Joined: May 24, 2007

Posted:
May 18, 2009  20:21 

you can even do away with the square roots and compare distances squared (since distances are nonnegative, the comparisons are the same) 


PhrollikK
Joined: Nov 04, 2006

Posted:
May 18, 2009  20:28 

I just remembered that it is slightly dubious to discuss throwing ranges on the TT. I made a BB pitch a couple years back and when I measured the width and breadth of the board which I own it wasn't totally rectangular, but slightly trapezoidal. I had another board that I used as a reference and it too was slightly odd shaped :/ 
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