Mr-Klipp
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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 Posted:
Jan 11, 2004 - 11:03 |
 
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The simple problem with a blind matchup system is that the people that would be most interested in playing there are those who want to "trick" you into playing teams that people just wouldn't play against in open. Looking forward to playing the 3 PO RSC Claw and 5 Dirty Player chaos teams? All the people who just like to kill an opponents team and ignore the ball would love it, but what exactly does it offer the rest of us that Open doesn't already give you? |
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Azurus
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Jan 11, 2004 - 11:28 |
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I realy like the 'ribbon' idea, as I'm always looking for something to strive for with my teams.
Escpecially the idea of playing every official team once. This can be VERY hard to do. My oldest team (42 games) has played in both open and divX, and while having played against 16 different races, is just gets more difficult to get the others.
In my case humans & CDs (which is wierd since there are plenty of both), and both stunty teams are absent. But then, how do you get to play against stunties with a TR 250+ team? Might be easier now that handicaps are in..... |
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freak_in_a_frock
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Jan 11, 2004 - 13:03 |
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I have a chaos team that only has to play 2 more races to complete the grand slam, vut the problem is that it would be easier for the more agile teams to achieve this, because very few teams would turn them down. My chaos team has an average cas rating of 1.74, less than most human teams out there, but i still find it hard to get a game, and when i do i get abused for hitting my opponent with taunts such as, 'Why do you pick a team just to hurt people' when i obviously don't, having no mighty blow, RSC, claw or piling on.
As for easier to play halflings now we have a handicap, i think you will find it even harder, coz the handicap rolls hit the flings the hardest.
Medals would be a great addition to the game, but would it be abused, with friends making new teams, just to help each other fill their quota, also let's see a dwarf team complete it, with goblins, halflings and amazons turning them down without even having to check their team  |
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MickeX
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Jan 11, 2004 - 16:04 |
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| BadMrMojo wrote: | | MickeX wrote: | ...
About a blind challenge division: how about a blind challenge where a bot chooses an opponent for you - considering what races your team has played before? That way the poor elf team won't have to play dwarves twice until they've done a full cycle. |
That's just one of the several wonderful things you can do with Div T. Make your own blind challenge tourney! |
Only problem is that I can't play regularly. I think the original poster had the same trouble. Div. T seems great though. |
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BadMrMojo
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Jan 11, 2004 - 17:38 |
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| MickeX wrote: | | Only problem is that I can't play regularly. I think the original poster had the same trouble. Div. T seems great though. |
Then make a tourney without a fixed schedule. You just need to join #MY_TOURNEY_CHANNEL (or whatever you want to call it) and learn to script an IRC client. Keep it on that channel to hold it open and also to make a bot that would (when someone sent the bot a message) randomly pick a person in the channel to play the person who sent the message.
Sounds like work? Imagine how much work it would be to make a whole new division for FUMBBL... |
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DoubleSkulls
Joined: Oct 05, 2003
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Jan 12, 2004 - 12:47 |
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For the medal idea I think having Bronze/Silver/Gold is a good idea.
Gold, IMO ought to be for every [num teams] games played you've played every team at least once. Silver could be 2 x [num teams], Bronze 3x. So in the open if you've played 38 games you'd get gold star if you've played every race twice, and a silver if every race once.
That's quite a lot of games for a team (I mean I've got only 1 open team with more than 20 games played). Maybe we need to categorise the teams - flair/neutral/bashy then you have to play a certain proportion against each category. |
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Jugular
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Jan 12, 2004 - 17:52 |
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Categories will not work. Within each category people will find the 'easiest' race to play and it'll just be a slightly diluted version of the current open div trends. If the medals rewarded people by increasing their coach rating (which would not affect their teams) you would see a lot more interest in using it. Having a table showing how well each gold medalled team is doing would provide a division within a division feel and an air of exclusivity also increasing interest in diverse play. The major problem with the idea is having to play every other race once you will have great difficulty finding games against certain races (I expect halflings and gobbos). Hopefully im wrong. Is there any chance of seeing this idea implemented? What are the major pitfalls? Do we really need bronze, silver and gold? |
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BadMrMojo
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Jan 12, 2004 - 18:23 |
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I'm sorry, purple... I think we kind of hijacked your thread. Maybe we should move the ribbons/medals discussion into another thread for refinement?
| PurpleChest wrote: | ...
But time and time agaion I'm noticing the same patterns. Dodge/Ag teams won't play teams with decent amounts of tackle. Teams without much tackle won't play teams with a lot of dodge. Slow teams won't play fast ones. etc. etc. etc.
Now while this is perfectly understandable it makes a nonsense of the idea that we are somehow playing BloodBowl and that team ratings let alone personal ratings mean anything at all. As i understand it each teams is balanced against the entire of the rest of the game, not just against the teams they fancy playing... |
I think the only thing you can do is play a lot of people and figure out who are the weasels and who just wants to play. Note that by "weasels" I'm referring to people you don't care to play against - NOT necessarily the same people that I don't want to play. It's tough with the number of coaches here, but there are good folks around who undoubtedly feel similar to you. When you find one of them, remember who it is and make sure to play them again. When you find a weasel (so named for their ability to slip through tiny holes, in this case, loopholes in the rules), remember them and avoid them. I try to find good coaches and develop rivalries and series. I also play lots of just random people when I see them to find more. Just whatever makes it fun for you, not necessarily taking any old game from any old challenger - unless that's what you find fun.
The double blind tourney does sound like a fine idea for a lot of folks. I think you'll find a lot of people use it as an excuse to get people to play their "All-DP-RSC Marauders" but each to their own.
| PurpleChest wrote: | ...
I'm sure there are massive problems with all those ideas and that I will be roundly criticised for finding any fault with the excellent free service that is provided by fumbbl (which i appreciate and value) and please don't accuse me of taking this all too seriously as I genuinly play for fun and fun alone, but I guess I just want the variety of a real BB experience without the commitment required to achieve it.... |
I hope you don't think I was flaming you earlier for a sincere and worthwhile opinion. I was just trying to do the same. I hope you do find a good crowd and start enjoying yourself again when you have the time to. |
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Primarch
Joined: Dec 14, 2003
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Jan 12, 2004 - 19:04 |
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The main problem, and it will continue to be so, is the balance of the teams. There is a VERY good reason i log in, and do bb lfg and get nothing but Chaos/Orc/Khemri/Dwarf, and they all want to play my WE.
There is also a VERY good reason i decline. After the game, their team goes on, gets some SPP points, gets stronger, win or lose, my team, gets decimated and retired. Until there is a balanced LONG term solution i will continue to decline these games.
Sure its not fun to play all bashy teams, but the av7 teams CANNOT stay alive long term by playing nothing but bashy teams.
Of course, some of you will argue that i should dodge away, before you post that, read up on the skills list. |
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Mr-Klipp
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Jan 12, 2004 - 19:33 |
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Players are not *meant* to live forever. Wood elves have a number of advantages, a high speed, an excellent ability to play the ball, they have no problems keeping a high FF to keep replacement money coming because they can nearly always score 2+ td's a match and very often win. In exchange for all this, they have a lower av and thus are more likely to be injured. How is this not balanced?
Do you only consider it balanced if you have no drawbacks? |
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pabloex
Joined: Sep 23, 2003
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Jan 12, 2004 - 19:52 |
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| BadMrMojo wrote: |
I think the only thing you can do is play a lot of people and figure out who are the weasels and who just wants to play. Note that by "weasels" I'm referring to people you don't care to play against - NOT necessarily the same people that I don't want to play. It's tough with the number of coaches here, but there are good folks around who undoubtedly feel similar to you. When you find one of them, remember who it is and make sure to play them again. When you find a weasel (so named for their ability to slip through tiny holes, in this case, loopholes in the rules), remember them and avoid them. |
While the medals idea is worth considering, this takes me back to what I said earlier in the thread. What I think will be most useful is a set of querying tools for coaches to use. Being able to run queries on the matches the coaches have played will allow folks to quickly identify people to look for. Generating a list of coaches that play with the same type of criteria you play can only be a good thing.
Perhaps an easy short term fix is to allow coaches to create additional lists. Having a friends list is fine, but how about a Play list and an Do Not Play list for each coach to keep?
| Mr-Klipp wrote: | Players are not *meant* to live forever. Wood elves have a number of advantages, a high speed, an excellent ability to play the ball, they have no problems keeping a high FF to keep replacement money coming because they can nearly always score 2+ td's a match and very often win. In exchange for all this, they have a lower av and thus are more likely to be injured. How is this not balanced?
Do you only consider it balanced if you have no drawbacks? |
While I agree 100% that players are meant to play and die, I think the larger concern with balance is what games are available to you. The Wood Elf team that plays as many dodgy teams as they do bashy teams is much more likely to last longer than the one that plays a bashy team 4 out of every 5 games. Balance isn't necessarily something that exists in an individual match, rather it is something that is supposed to occur over time and many matches. |
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Mr-Klipp
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
Jan 12, 2004 - 19:57 |
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| pabloex wrote: |
| Mr-Klipp wrote: | Players are not *meant* to live forever. Wood elves have a number of advantages, a high speed, an excellent ability to play the ball, they have no problems keeping a high FF to keep replacement money coming because they can nearly always score 2+ td's a match and very often win. In exchange for all this, they have a lower av and thus are more likely to be injured. How is this not balanced?
Do you only consider it balanced if you have no drawbacks? |
While I agree 100% that players are meant to play and die, I think the larger concern with balance is what games are available to you. The Wood Elf team that plays as many dodgy teams as they do bashy teams is much more likely to last longer than the one that plays a bashy team 4 out of every 5 games. Balance isn't necessarily something that exists in an individual match, rather it is something that is supposed to occur over time and many matches. |
Oh I'm quite aware that a wood elf team that never plays anything but stunties and other elves will have a much easier time having a long career. Open allows you to pick your games, so of course some people will only play easy games. Just don't try to justify such behavior by saying it's because of balance. |
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BadMrMojo
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
Jan 12, 2004 - 19:59 |
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| pabloex wrote: | | ...What I think will be most useful is a set of querying tools for coaches to use. Being able to run queries on the matches the coaches have played will allow folks to quickly identify people to look for. |
My only concern would be the load on the server. If a lot of people get going, particularly if they had "saved searches" or something for common queries, then it's a heapin' helpin' o' hurtin' on the server. I'd rather avoid that, personally.
| Quote: | | ...The Wood Elf team that plays as many dodgy teams as they do bashy teams is much more likely to last longer than the one that plays a bashy team 4 out of every 5 games... |
I think the point Klipp was trying to make was that they guy wanted to play 4/5 against dodgy teams... that's just as bad, just in the opposite direction. |
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PurpleChest
Joined: Oct 25, 2003
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Special thanks to BadMrMojo. There are far more good experiences and people on fumbbl than bad and i continue to play when time permits. Sadly that will be infrequent for a few months but i should have soem time at weekends.
The many faults with the blind challenge system seem to mean it would, if anything, be counterproductive in producing varied challenges. Might one option here be totally blind challenges where 'a computery thing' matches teams based on fumbbl stats. So an Amazon team at tr/str X is matched to a dwarf team at tr/str X-20 (if fumbbl stats showed that the % win chance was equal for dwarfs v amazons where dwarfs are 20 points lower than amazons) but would match the same amazons at tr/str X with humans at X+3 (assuming fumbbl stats showed amazons v humans balanced % wins when humans were 3 points stronger)
That could produce a league where the odds of winning any game (irrespective of coach skill) at the start of any game where as close to even as possible.
Could also be pointlessly complex while still producing a bashers paradise.
The medal idea seems more promising. If Ag based teams found it easier to get that would only help encourage them to play a wider range of teams, which would help. Str based teams might have to play up to get it but at least the goal would be there. Not sure about Gold, Silver etc. I think playing every available race would be tough in 30 matches let alone in 19. Surely that would make getting games very hard very quickly or the quest is over and that seems a little bleak. leaves no room for grudges, returns, revenge and loads of other fun stuff. But quite a few have said if it wa there to be gone for, they'd go for it. As i said before I'd hope it was something that could 'encourage' rather than 'force' or 'limit' but thats just me. |
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NNNChef
Joined: Dec 09, 2003
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Jan 12, 2004 - 20:37 |
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Primarch, it is allways possible to win with Elves and even to beat und smash a bashy team. I played with my dark elves 10 games. 4 Games against non bashy teams and 6 games against bashy teams like Dwarves Khemri and so on. I won 7 times and I made more casualities as my opponents. They just always wonder who is the elven team, when I play my aggressive tactics. |
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