CircularLogic
Joined: Aug 22, 2003
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 Posted:
Jun 25, 2010 - 10:05 |
 
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| Prinz wrote: | It's perfectly reasonable for Blitz to allow the player to escape from shadowing.
Let's think about it logically, you're blocking the other player, they can't shadow you as they're too busy getting knocked the hell back by your. It also makes no sense to shadow someone at the same time as they're stepping into your square. |
So how do you explain it logically, that if the marked player blitzes a team-mate, the shadowing player (who has not been hit) cannot shadow? |
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Fela
Joined: Dec 27, 2004
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Jun 25, 2010 - 10:06 |
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Sorry guys, this discussion doesn't make much sense.
Yes, the interpretation is strange and creative.
However, there can be NO DOUBT, that it's a legitimate interpretation of the rules. The Block ACTION consists of the actual block and the follow up movement. The shadowing skill description is very explicit in stating that movement for ANY reason can be shadowed as long as it is part of an action. In conclusion, movement for the reason of following up a blocked player can be shadowed.
The movement isn't as unnatural as some of you guys seem to think either, it's one of the most basic Aikido moves.
There is only one solution for those who cannot live with this interpretation: Change the shadowing skill by adding an exclusion or limitation. |
Last edited by Fela on %b %25, %2010 - %10:%Jun; edited 1 time in total |
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CircularLogic
Joined: Aug 22, 2003
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Jun 25, 2010 - 10:07 |
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| Calthor wrote: | | CircularLogic wrote: | | Also possibly passblocking players, because I don't know if the passblock move counts as an action. |
"The move is made using all of the normal rules and skills (for example, having to dodge in order to leave opposing players' tackle zones)"
So, Shadowing would still work on a Pass Block move. |
But as far as I recall, it is not an action. You cannot use JumpUp for example, which is used at the start of your action. |
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Fela
Joined: Dec 27, 2004
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Jun 25, 2010 - 10:11 |
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| CircularLogic wrote: | | Calthor wrote: | | CircularLogic wrote: | | Also possibly passblocking players, because I don't know if the passblock move counts as an action. |
"The move is made using all of the normal rules and skills (for example, having to dodge in order to leave opposing players' tackle zones)"
So, Shadowing would still work on a Pass Block move. |
But as far as I recall, it is not an action. You cannot use JumpUp for example, which is used at the start of your action. |
Pass Block cannot be shadowed, as the movement is not part of an Action. What more is there to say? |
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Calthor
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
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Jun 25, 2010 - 10:14 |
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| Fela wrote: | | CircularLogic wrote: | | Calthor wrote: | | CircularLogic wrote: | | Also possibly passblocking players, because I don't know if the passblock move counts as an action. |
"The move is made using all of the normal rules and skills (for example, having to dodge in order to leave opposing players' tackle zones)"
So, Shadowing would still work on a Pass Block move. |
But as far as I recall, it is not an action. You cannot use JumpUp for example, which is used at the start of your action. |
Pass Block cannot be shadowed, as the movement is not part of an Action. What more is there to say? |
Ah, I see you're right, Fela. My bad.
"You are correct ... you cannot shadow a Pass Block player." |
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Fela
Joined: Dec 27, 2004
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Jun 25, 2010 - 10:48 |
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| Calthor wrote: | | Fela wrote: | | CircularLogic wrote: | | Calthor wrote: | | CircularLogic wrote: | | Also possibly passblocking players, because I don't know if the passblock move counts as an action. |
"The move is made using all of the normal rules and skills (for example, having to dodge in order to leave opposing players' tackle zones)"
So, Shadowing would still work on a Pass Block move. |
But as far as I recall, it is not an action. You cannot use JumpUp for example, which is used at the start of your action. |
Pass Block cannot be shadowed, as the movement is not part of an Action. What more is there to say? |
Ah, I see you're right, Fela. My bad.
"You are correct ... you cannot shadow a Pass Block player." |
Again, the solution is fixing the rule, not critizising people for pointing out the obvious.
I DO agree that it SHOULD be possible to shadow a pass block player, but the wording of the rules as they are now says it's not. |
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CircularLogic
Joined: Aug 22, 2003
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| Posted:
Jun 25, 2010 - 10:59 |
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Or simply declare pass block a special action that you can take during the pass action and you are set. I highly doubt, that allowing Jump Up to work during pass block would break the game. |
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Koigokoro
Joined: Sep 29, 2005
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Jun 25, 2010 - 11:23 |
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Before the latest version of shadowing,
"Shadowing (General)
The player may use this skill when a player performing an Action on the
opposing team moves out of any of his tackle zones for any reason.",
You could by the rules Shadow all movement by opponent players inclunding Pass Block, Shadowing movement(which lead to rather silly chains of movement sometimes) and even an opponent player your blocker pushed back. The latest caused confusion as then you couldn't follow the opponent pushed back with your blocker and if I got it right that was the most dire reason to better/fix the rule. Shadowing was almost removed from the game with 3/7 of BBRC voting for removal(including Jervis).
So instead it was nerfed/improved/made clearer to allow you only to follow any movement by active player. Which are movement in Move, Foul, Hand-Off, Pass and Blitz Actions and Follow Up Move in Block and Blitz Actions. |
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CircularLogic
Joined: Aug 22, 2003
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Jun 25, 2010 - 12:05 |
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But not the passblock movement, as it is not an action but and out-of-turn-move.
And also not shadowing movements of an opponent as this opponent isn't performing an action when he leaves your TZ. |
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Sinner
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Jun 25, 2010 - 13:00 |
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Hmm,
Shadow quoted the LRB stating the list of actions (Block, Move, Blitz, Pass, Hand-Off, Foul). So Shadowing itself is not an action. So you cannot shadow a shadower. Or for that matter a shadowee cannot shadow the shadower.
The rule states that you can use shadowing skill whenever an opposing player leaves your TZ with one of the above actions. So if a blocking player makes use of follow up option a shadowing player should be allowed to follow
B blocks T and S follows B
| Code: |
1.B blocks T
_____
_SBT_
_____
2. T moves to new square
_____
_SB_T
_____
3. B follows
_____
_S_BT
_____
4. S shadows B
_____
__SBT
_____
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Thats how it should work. T of course is not able to shadow even if S was not there as T is leaving Bs TZ and not vice versa. If the sidestepping player is still in TZ of B than B has not even left tze TZ of T and thus Shadowing cannot be used as B never left the TZ of T
B blocks T who has sidestep
| Code: |
1.B performs block
_____
__BT_
_____
2. T sidesteps
_____
__B__
__T__
3. B follows
_____
___B_
__T__
4. no further action as B is still in TZ of T -> no shadowing
_____
___B_
__T__
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That is my two cents.[/code] |
_________________
Sinner
Darkie's Dreams - successfully cherrypicking any race, any coach, any rating, any number of DP since 20/09/2003 ... and still winning! |
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RandomOracle
Joined: Jan 11, 2004
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| Posted:
Jun 25, 2010 - 13:15 |
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| Sinner wrote: |
Thats how it should work. T of course is not able to shadow even if S was not there as T is leaving Bs TZ and not vice versa. If the sidestepping player is still in TZ of B than B has not even left tze TZ of T and thus Shadowing cannot be used as B never left the TZ of T
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I don't this is how it should work. A player has eight tacklezones around him, so you can leave one but still be in another of his tacklezones. By your logic, you couldn't shadow a player when he was dodging through your tacklezones. |
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Sinner
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Jun 25, 2010 - 13:40 |
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| RandomOracle wrote: | | Sinner wrote: |
Thats how it should work. T of course is not able to shadow even if S was not there as T is leaving Bs TZ and not vice versa. If the sidestepping player is still in TZ of B than B has not even left tze TZ of T and thus Shadowing cannot be used as B never left the TZ of T
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I don't this is how it should work. A player has eight tacklezones around him, so you can leave one but still be in another of his tacklezones. By your logic, you couldn't shadow a player when he was dodging through your tacklezones. |
Hmmm, I see your point. Actually you are right. The rule says leaving any of the tackle zones. Which implies there ist more than one ( . So by this logic the blocked player should be able to follow the blocking player.
I do not think this came to mind when the rules were written, but it would make SS + Shadow very powerful as you would be able to switch places if not going prone.
I'd still would think it should not be possible, meaning blocked players cannot shadow. |
_________________
Sinner
Darkie's Dreams - successfully cherrypicking any race, any coach, any rating, any number of DP since 20/09/2003 ... and still winning! |
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Calthor
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
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| Posted:
Jun 25, 2010 - 13:48 |
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| Sinner wrote: | | I'd still would think it should not be possible, meaning blocked players cannot shadow. |
But it appears that's exactly what they CAN do. Which just made Shadowing a much more interesting skill in my book. |
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DukeTyrion
Joined: Feb 18, 2004
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| Posted:
Jun 25, 2010 - 14:03 |
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Would make it interesting if the blocking player had Frenzy, you could end up with both players exactly where they started  |
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maysrill
Joined: Dec 29, 2008
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| Posted:
Jun 25, 2010 - 14:06 |
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| Calthor wrote: | | Sinner wrote: | | I'd still would think it should not be possible, meaning blocked players cannot shadow. |
But it appears that's exactly what they CAN do. Which just made Shadowing a much more interesting skill in my book. |
There are often unintended consequences of rule interactions. This one seems especially spiffy. |
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