Prinz
Joined: Oct 01, 2005
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 Posted:
Jun 26, 2010 - 12:58 |
 
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| Koigokoro wrote: | How can you still try to ignore that the rule makers say you can use Shadowing on Follow Up Moves?
You confuse me with keeping this going on and on, but I quess you too are on vacation. |
You mean a BBRC member supposedly interpreted the rulebook that way? That's a rather big difference. Because it is an interpretation, and a very odd one, of the rules. If it were no an interpretation it would be specifically stated in the rulebook that you could use shadowing in that way, which it is not.
And no, I'm not on vacation, I'm working 12.5 hour night shifts, on the weekend. And for some reason still helping people like you on this site..... |
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 "Canadians like it on top."  "The MOST recognized name in violence..." |
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Prinz
Joined: Oct 01, 2005
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| Posted:
Jun 26, 2010 - 12:59 |
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| cmelchior wrote: | | The blocking player is not dodging (as pr. the rule referenced by f_alk), so Diving Tackle cannot be used. |
Right, but you say the other player can ignore that the follow-up player is ignoring tacklezones, and force a dodge roll.....that's your logic. |
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Calthor
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
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| Posted:
Jun 26, 2010 - 13:07 |
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Apparently, this whole issue has been a topic for debat years ago.
BBRC Hot List 2003
It doesn't say what the answer is there, but that was in 2003, right?
Now, a BBRC member says in 2009 that Shadowing can be used on a follow up.
...
Sorry, but that seems to be that it's not a 'supposed interpretation' but rather a BBRC decision. |
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Prinz
Joined: Oct 01, 2005
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| Posted:
Jun 26, 2010 - 13:12 |
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| Calthor wrote: | Apparently, this whole issue has been a topic for debat years ago.
BBRC Hot List 2003
It doesn't say what the answer is there, but that was in 2003, right?
Now, a BBRC member says in 2009 that Shadowing can be used on a follow up.
...
Sorry, but that seems to be that it's not a 'supposed interpretation' but rather a BBRC decision. |
It lists it as "examples of possible exceptions", so that supports that it shouldn't work. There is then never a decision on this included in LRB5. If it was a BBRC decision and recognized by them as being something that should be clarified, why hasn't it been included to say that shadowing is not an exception and doesn't follow the logical interpretation of the rules? |
_________________
"Canadians like it on top." "The MOST recognized name in violence..." |
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Koigokoro
Joined: Sep 29, 2005
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| Posted:
Jun 26, 2010 - 13:15 |
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| Prinz wrote: | | Calthor wrote: | Apparently, this whole issue has been a topic for debat years ago.
BBRC Hot List 2003
It doesn't say what the answer is there, but that was in 2003, right?
Now, a BBRC member says in 2009 that Shadowing can be used on a follow up.
...
Sorry, but that seems to be that it's not a 'supposed interpretation' but rather a BBRC decision. |
It lists it as "examples of possible exceptions", so that supports that it shouldn't work. There is then never a decision on this included in LRB5. If it was a BBRC decision and recognized by them as being something that should be clarified, why hasn't it been included to say that shadowing is not an exception and doesn't follow the logical interpretation of the rules? |
That is before LRB4(Where it worked on all movement and caused a rule collision in a case) and they almost removed the whole skill, but ended up making it into that "Active player performing an Action" -thingy cutting the situations it works only to Follow Up, Dodge, Leap and Ball&Chain Movement. |
Last edited by Koigokoro on %b %26, %2010 - %13:%Jun; edited 1 time in total |
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Koigokoro
Joined: Sep 29, 2005
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| Posted:
Jun 26, 2010 - 13:19 |
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| Prinz wrote: | | Koigokoro wrote: | How can you still try to ignore that the rule makers say you can use Shadowing on Follow Up Moves?
You confuse me with keeping this going on and on, but I quess you too are on vacation. |
You mean a BBRC member supposedly interpreted the rulebook that way? That's a rather big difference. Because it is an interpretation, and a very odd one, of the rules. If it were no an interpretation it would be specifically stated in the rulebook that you could use shadowing in that way, which it is not.
And no, I'm not on vacation, I'm working 12.5 hour night shifts, on the weekend. And for some reason still helping people like you on this site..... |
Thanks for your time and caring then, I appreciate it, but still disagree and I've all time for you too. If you feel like I'm taking your precious time away or the vacation guess felt like an insult, sorry for that. |
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cmelchior
Joined: Apr 11, 2004
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| Posted:
Jun 26, 2010 - 13:22 |
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| Prinz wrote: | | cmelchior wrote: | | The blocking player is not dodging (as pr. the rule referenced by f_alk), so Diving Tackle cannot be used. |
Right, but you say the other player can ignore that the follow-up player is ignoring tacklezones, and force a dodge roll.....that's your logic. |
Eh?....No, I'm not saying that. I'm saying that the player blocking ignores all tackle zones when doing a follow up. But ignoring them doesn't mean that they isn't there, which is important in regard to the Shadowing player.
Another funny thing about that is that as far as I read Tentacle, you can follow up away from a Tentacle player without having to roll as you are not dodging away from him. |
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Koigokoro
Joined: Sep 29, 2005
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| Posted:
Jun 26, 2010 - 13:23 |
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| Quote: | BBRC Hot List 2003
It doesn't say what the answer is there, but that was in 2003, right?
Now, a BBRC member says in 2009 that Shadowing can be used on a follow up. |
But it does:
"As Shadowing currently reads it applies ANY time an opponent leaves a player's tackle zone. Does this mean Shadowing is supposed to apply to each of the following:
During your turn, if an opponent uses Pass Block
BBRC response: Yes
During your turn if you push an opponent from a block
BBRC response: No
During your opponent's turn if they follow-up from a block
BBRC response: Yes
During your opponent's turn if he uses Leap
BBRC response: Yes, but only to Shadow into the square the Leaper leaped from (ie it cannot be used twice to become adjacent again)" |
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CircularLogic
Joined: Aug 22, 2003
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| Posted:
Jun 26, 2010 - 13:29 |
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| f_alk wrote: | The rulebook states on page 8: "In order to leave a square that is in one or more opposing tackle zones, a player must dodge out of the square".
On page 67 it says on Shadowing: "The opposing player may use this skill when a player performing an Action on the opposing team moves out of any of his tackle zones for any reason".
So, without a dodge roll, a player has never officially left a field with a tackle zone. So, I go with then point that you CAN NOT shadow the follow up. A follow up never leaves a tackle zones as you don't have to do a dodge roll. Without a dodge roll, you have never left the tackle zone (see above!) |
So if he never leaves your tacklezone, he probably stays in it. That means your tacklezone gets crowded really fast. |
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Prinz
Joined: Oct 01, 2005
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| Posted:
Jun 26, 2010 - 13:42 |
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| Koigokoro wrote: | | Quote: | BBRC Hot List 2003
It doesn't say what the answer is there, but that was in 2003, right?
Now, a BBRC member says in 2009 that Shadowing can be used on a follow up. |
But it does:
"As Shadowing currently reads it applies ANY time an opponent leaves a player's tackle zone. Does this mean Shadowing is supposed to apply to each of the following:
During your turn, if an opponent uses Pass Block
BBRC response: Yes
During your turn if you push an opponent from a block
BBRC response: No
During your opponent's turn if they follow-up from a block
BBRC response: Yes
During your opponent's turn if he uses Leap
BBRC response: Yes, but only to Shadow into the square the Leaper leaped from (ie it cannot be used twice to become adjacent again)" |
That's in 2002.
Also in 2002 "If any of these should not apply then the skill needs better worded. "
So in 2003 they put it on the list.
And to me it's reworded to make it not apply in certain situations. If it now does apply, why is it not clarified in the FAQ? |
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"Canadians like it on top." "The MOST recognized name in violence..." |
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Koigokoro
Joined: Sep 29, 2005
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| Posted:
Jun 26, 2010 - 13:47 |
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| Prinz wrote: | | Koigokoro wrote: | | Quote: | BBRC Hot List 2003
It doesn't say what the answer is there, but that was in 2003, right?
Now, a BBRC member says in 2009 that Shadowing can be used on a follow up. |
But it does:
"As Shadowing currently reads it applies ANY time an opponent leaves a player's tackle zone. Does this mean Shadowing is supposed to apply to each of the following:
During your turn, if an opponent uses Pass Block
BBRC response: Yes
During your turn if you push an opponent from a block
BBRC response: No
During your opponent's turn if they follow-up from a block
BBRC response: Yes
During your opponent's turn if he uses Leap
BBRC response: Yes, but only to Shadow into the square the Leaper leaped from (ie it cannot be used twice to become adjacent again)" |
That's in 2002.
Also in 2002 "If any of these should not apply then the skill needs better worded. "
So in 2003 they put it on the list.
And to me it's reworded to make it not apply in certain situations. If it now does apply, why is it not clarified in the FAQ? |
Because the wording was clarified to cover all those answers and it is separately mentioned that Pass Block cannot be Shadowed. |
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WhatBall
Joined: Aug 21, 2008
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| Posted:
Jun 26, 2010 - 15:37 |
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Why doesn't someone just email Galak? |
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SillySod
Joined: Oct 10, 2006
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| Posted:
Jun 26, 2010 - 16:15 |
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| WhatBall wrote: | | Why doesn't someone just email Galak? |
... because he already answered this  |
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Putting the "eh?" back into Sexeh.
"There are those to whom knowledge is a shield. There are those to whom it is a weapon. Neither view is balanced." |
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f_alk
Joined: Sep 30, 2005
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| Posted:
Jun 26, 2010 - 20:38 |
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I still have not seen a rule that changes the definition of "leaving a tackle zone".
| CircularLogic wrote: | | f_alk wrote: | The rulebook states on page 8: "In order to leave a square that is in one or more opposing tackle zones, a player must dodge out of the square".
On page 67 it says on Shadowing: "The opposing player may use this skill when a player performing an Action on the opposing team moves out of any of his tackle zones for any reason". |
So if he never leaves your tacklezone, he probably stays in it. That means your tacklezone gets crowded really fast. |
As he clearly is not in the tacklezone later, then obviously he did not stay in it.
That means, that the tackle zone must have disappeared for a moments time when the player was moving.
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| cmelchior wrote: | I'm saying that the player blocking ignores all tackle zones when doing a follow up. But ignoring them doesn't mean that they isn't there, which is important in regard to the Shadowing player.
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But it clearly says you have to leave the tackle zone for shadowing to work.
It clearly says to leave a tackle zone you have to make a dodge.
"Ignoring tackle zones" does not mean that there are any. Just if there were any, you could ignore them. If there are no tackle zones, then he of course can still ignore them.
But:
It says you don't make a dodge roll.
Now, apply logic:
If you don't do a dodge roll, you are not leaving a tackle zone.
If you you are not leaving a tackle zone, but afterwards you are not inside the tackle zone then that means one thing:
- the tackle zone must have vanished, then you did the follow up move without a shadowing possible, then it reappeared.
That implication is the only conclusion if you want all parts of the rules to be consistent and not be contradicting. |
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f_alk
Joined: Sep 30, 2005
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| Posted:
Jun 26, 2010 - 20:44 |
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on page 8 as well: "Note that you must always make a Dodge roll when you are leaving a tackle zone".
No Dodge roll <=> no leaving the tackle zone
No leaving the tackle zone => no shadowing possible |
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