Traitor
Joined: Nov 18, 2003
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 Posted:
Jan 25, 2004 - 21:41 |
 
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I always liked the idea of squig hoppers in stunty. Klipp made a pretty interesting list, but it always seemed to me that the list became less about bloodbowl and more about just blood. Too many squigs, not enough goblins, really.
This is my take on re-working it to a form I find more player friendly. I wanted them to be fast(bounce bounce bounce) but fragile(squigs are really just inflated balls of fungus). They should encourage a dynamic play with quick re-deployments, desperate moves, and things going squish! alot. Sometimes even on the opponents side. Like fast and fragile, cept bouncy and squishy instead.
0-16 Squig Herders 6 2 3 7 Stunty, right stuff, dodge, thrall (A) 40 000
0-2 Netters 6 2 3 7 Stunty, right stuff, dodge, thrall, tackle (A) 60 000
0-2 Clubbers 6 2 3 7 Stunty, right stuff, dodge, thrall, dirty player (A) 60 000
0-3 Squig Hoppers 5 4 3 7 OFAB, Pogo, RSF, Stunty, (G, A) 90 000
70k Rerolls
Squig hoppers
Strengths: Strong, fast(with pogo). Excellent scorers and casualty machines. Stunty means they get very hard to pin down. Bouncy.
Weaknesses: Squishy. With av 7 and stunty, they are as weak as gobbos when they get hit. Needs lots of skills. While they can be hitters and scorers, they lack the starting skills for either. They make spp's fast, but they need it. They also tend to get replaced alot.
Comments: I raised the max from two to three, but nerfed them a bit. Movement 5 means they cant become one turners, and AG 3 assures that they'll need skills to be reliable ball handlers. With stunty, they can still dodge like crazy. Im actually two minds about stunty, as it might make them TOO fragile. On the other hand, I can see them bouncing out of tackle zones, and I like this way more than giving them ag 4.
S 4 is a tricky one. It means they throw 2d blocks against S2 opponents, unlike most other big guys. Also, multiple block is less of an option for them, as a block against 2 stunties will usually be made with only 1 dice. They also tend to eat their team mates every now and then. Squish squish!
Netters&clubbers
With the lack of TTM for this team, it seemed the already fairly ordinary goblins had gotten even less appealing. They seemed destined as a short, brutal life as squig fodder and sacrifices on the LoS. This, combined with the fact that the squig hoppers will often be carried off the pitch halfway through the game, made me feel that the gobbos needed something more. Netters and clubbers are part of the squig herder theme, and give the gobbos something to do besides being beaten and eaten. Netters are good at bringing things down on the ground, where the clubbers beat them senseless. This lets the lil green guys put up some kind of fight even without their bouncy pals.
Netters get tackle because its actually good for bringing things down. Much better than tentacle, which I understand was suggested for netters before. I dont know if netters will need a penalty roll; clubbers wont, since the rules for fouls already keep them in check.
All in all, I tried to make a list that has definite strengths and weaknesses. The squig hoppers are fairly mean, but they cant go up against real big guys. You'll have to pick your battles, or end up a red and green paste on the pitch.
Or atleast, that's the plan. Im not an expert on blood bowl or game design. So, I'll leave the stage to the people with more experience to comment. |
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Jarnageddon
Joined: Nov 04, 2003
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Feb 05, 2004 - 12:36 |
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I like this list and also Mr-Klipps and am only really posting to bump a Night goblin thread so they might get implamented while the re-balancing is being done. |
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Never hit a man with glasses. Hit him with something bigger and heavier. |
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Clementus
Joined: Oct 01, 2003
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Feb 05, 2004 - 13:16 |
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Likely that Night Gobbos will be thought about after balancing of other teams but must say this list looks alot better THOUGH general access on squigs is still worrying me, I reckon might be best just letting them have Agility. Lethal with Block Tackle, and requires no doubles and only 8 CAS, so not hard. |
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Warlord Clementus (of the Black Hand Tribe)
Monkey of the Moot!
Flings Rule! |
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tarzom
Joined: Aug 09, 2003
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Feb 05, 2004 - 13:39 |
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I'd like to add my 2pence about squigs
I like the ideas so far, but would like to offer another option:
0-4 Squigs 6 4 4 7 Wild Animal, Pogo, RSF, No Hands, Carry Team Mate, Always Hungry (G, A)
0-2 Squig Riders 6 2 3 7 Stunty, Right Stuff, dodge, Ride Team Mate (S) 60k
Ride/Carry Team mate Works in a similar way to TTM. A player with RTM can climb on a player with CTM after passing an agility roll.
In the example of a Squig and Squig Rider - A SR stood next to a Squig attempts to climb on (make an AG roll for the Goblin + an Always Hungry roll for the Squig) if successful the goblin now controls the Squig and can ride it for the 6 squares. The Squig fails WA only on a 1in6 rather than a 3in6 whilst the goblin in still riding and the rider may still handle the ball. At the end of his move he may dismount with another AG roll. Next turn the goblin must make another AG roll to stay on and another Always hungry roll to avoid being eaten.
Alternatively (or additionally)
how about:
0-2 Squig Herders 6 2 3 7 Stunty, Right Stuff, Dodge, Herd (s) 60k
Herd skill allows the Squig to roll WA 1in6 rather than 3in6 whilst the herder is next to them. |
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Traitor
Joined: Nov 18, 2003
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Feb 05, 2004 - 14:18 |
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Squigs are indeed deadly with access to block and tackle, but they are the heavy hitters of this team. With no access to general skills, I fear they would be walked all over in most fights. They are already weaker in combat than most big guys, after all.
I quite like the carry team mate thing, but that would require creating and testing a new skill. The balancing of new teams is tricky enough, new skills is a real pain. As for a new skill, which is a vital part of a team strategy... well, Im not sure we want to open that particular can of worms if we can avoid it. |
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Mr-Klipp
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Feb 05, 2004 - 14:52 |
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You can only use the skills already in the client. Anything requiring new skills is a no go. |
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The Finishing Touch |
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Clementus
Joined: Oct 01, 2003
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Feb 05, 2004 - 15:00 |
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Might be weaker than other big guys but NO other big guys have RSF or a decent ability to dodge to hunt down players. Stunty is scary on an ag 4 player would BOOST up their Worth ALOT. Hadnt noticed stunty before. But remember Pogos dont have stunty, nor any weapons so not sure Squigs should, or definitely not riders. |
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Warlord Clementus (of the Black Hand Tribe)
Monkey of the Moot!
Flings Rule! |
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Clementus
Joined: Oct 01, 2003
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Feb 05, 2004 - 15:03 |
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Just a small point, for the Night Gobbos to be Introduced they need icons really, so if anyone wants to do them plz get down to it. preferably different to gobbos would be good, Black hoods etc or cloaks of a few moons on em etc. |
_________________
Warlord Clementus (of the Black Hand Tribe)
Monkey of the Moot!
Flings Rule! |
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Jarnageddon
Joined: Nov 04, 2003
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Feb 05, 2004 - 15:21 |
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Traitor
Joined: Nov 18, 2003
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Feb 05, 2004 - 15:38 |
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In my suggestion, squig hoppers are AG3, not AG4. The reason I gave them stunty was because this means they get harder to pin down and lets you play the 'bouncy' game, but doesn't improve their ball handling skills. Bouncing may help you out of a tight spot, but it wont make picking up the ball any easier(I actually considered giving squig hoppers AG2 for a while, but that would mean they became pure hitters, not the scorer/hitter hybrid I was hoping for). Fluff-wise, I imagine the bounciness making it harder to restrain their movements, just like being a short bugger means its hard to pin down stunties. Its not ideal, but its the best I could think of.
Other big guys can get some limited dodging ability by taking break tackle. Its true they cant hunt down players in the same way that squig hoppers can, but on the other hand most big guys can survive a beating. Squig hoppers die as easily as goblins. The team already has no access to strength skills, giving them no access to general skills either would probably be too much. I actually considered giving them strength and agility skills but no general skills, but in the end I felt several strength skills made no sense for squig hoppers.
Also, while 3 squig hoppers with block and tackle would be very nasty indeed, this means you're not getting any ball handling skills. I expect this team to have a rather high turnover rate, with no armor over 7, everyone having stunty, and OFAB. You're going to have to score your share of touchdowns to keep the team alive in the long run, and without TTM, your best scorers are the hoppers. Im hoping that having the hoppers as main hitters and scorers will encourage people to go for a balance in skills, instead of going all out smashiness. Then again, these things NEVER work out the way you plan... |
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Traitor
Joined: Nov 18, 2003
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Feb 05, 2004 - 15:49 |
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LtMonkey, why exactly do you think that list is better? The squigs are way more powerful than in my list, and there's more of them. Unridden squigs add nothing but carnage, and while casualties is a part of bloodbowl(and stunty in particular), it should be spread out during the game; it shouldn't all take place in the first 3 turns, when the 6 squigs eat the opposing team.
However, you are clearly of another opinion, and I'd like to hear it. Im still fairly new to this game, and its possible I've missed something that you noticed in comparing the lists. |
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Jarnageddon
Joined: Nov 04, 2003
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Feb 05, 2004 - 16:09 |
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I was referring to this one from Evo and twahns combined efforts.
0-16 Squig Herders 6 2 3 7 Stunty, right stuff, dodge, thrall (A) 40,000
0-4 Squigs 5 4 4 7 OFAB, Pogo, RSF, No Hands, Really Stupid (G, A) 70,000
0-2 Squig Hoppers 5 4 3 7 OFAB, Pogo, RSF (G, A) 90,000
70k Rerolls
It seems pretty fair to me and has been picked apart at length, I'm not keen on the Netters starting with tackle, why not extra arms or diving Catch/Tackle?
To be honest I like the idea of lots of Squigs and having played a couple of standalone games with them I assure you they are a double edged sword. |
_________________
Never hit a man with glasses. Hit him with something bigger and heavier. |
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thmbscrws
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Feb 05, 2004 - 16:19 |
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| Traitor wrote: | I always liked the idea of squig hoppers in stunty. Klipp made a pretty interesting list, but it always seemed to me that the list became less about bloodbowl and more about just blood. Too many squigs, not enough goblins, really.
This is my take on re-working it to a form I find more player friendly. I wanted them to be fast(bounce bounce bounce) but fragile(squigs are really just inflated balls of fungus). They should encourage a dynamic play with quick re-deployments, desperate moves, and things going squish! alot. Sometimes even on the opponents side. Like fast and fragile, cept bouncy and squishy instead.
0-16 Squig Herders 6 2 3 7 Stunty, right stuff, dodge, thrall (A) 40 000
0-2 Netters 6 2 3 7 Stunty, right stuff, dodge, thrall, tackle (A) 60 000
0-2 Clubbers 6 2 3 7 Stunty, right stuff, dodge, thrall, dirty player (A) 60 000
0-3 Squig Hoppers 5 4 3 7 OFAB, Pogo, RSF, Stunty, (G, A) 90 000
70k Rerolls
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Squigs being stunty is a bit overpowerd imo, str 4 players that can march through tackle zones and into cages is a bit much. Also having players that start with both tackle and dirty player on the team is way over the top, these are two of the most choice skills in stunty and usually require a doubles roll to get. Squigs should definatley have no hands of course becuase str 4 ball handlers would be next to unstopable in stunty. I submitted a list a while ago but it got shot down because I toyed with the idea of doom diver catapults which weren't really a part of the night gobbo fluff. So here is what I think would be a bit more balanced.
0-16 Squig Herders 6 2 3 7 Stunty, right stuff, dodge, thrall (A) 40 k
0-2 Squig Hoppers 4 4 3 7 OFAB, Pogo, RSF, No Hands, Frenzy (G) 90 k
0-1 Cave Troll 4 5 1 9 RS, Regenerate, Always Hungry, TTM, Big Guy, Foul Apearance (G, S) 120 k
Rerolls 70k
Call me crazy but squigs without frenzy just really aren't squigs. I don't see how you can justify a str 4 player being stunty and I don't think agility 4 is right either as the squig should be pretty preoccupied with riping apart whatever is in fornt of it instead of running away. Agility four also makes the leap a bit too good if you ask me so the agility three stays in my mind. I like squigs with general skills but if you have more than two running around it seems a bit much but two squigs isn't enough to make the team competitive so a troll seemed like a good middle ground. It also gives them a crappy ttm option which is always fun. Having netters and clubbers seems like cluttering the list up to much, sometimes less is more. Well thats my take on it hope some of you like it. |
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Jarnageddon
Joined: Nov 04, 2003
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Feb 05, 2004 - 16:23 |
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I like it, but I'm biased, I just really want to see some form of Night goblins in Stunty.
Only thing I'd say is if you remove the Hands from Squig Hoppers what is there to make them play differently from the other stunty races?
We need more races in stunty, I say decide on a roster and put them in, make the changes to the other rosters and in 6 months or so see where we stand. |
_________________
Never hit a man with glasses. Hit him with something bigger and heavier. |
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Traitor
Joined: Nov 18, 2003
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Feb 05, 2004 - 17:34 |
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Everyone seems to agree that stunty on hoppers makes them over powered, and lookin at it again, I guess its probably true. They are hard to block for most stunties, so pinning them down with numbers is probably going to be the best tactic against them if you cant get a big guy there to squish them. I guess stunty might make them over powered.
I really dont like the unridden squigs though. I feel they add nothing to the team cept a bodycount. They wont add to the bounciness or the squishyness of the team(although bouncy and squishy is my vision for squig hoppers, it may not be everyones). The main reason to make leaps and pogo gfi's are to score, and squigs cant do that. Sure, it could be used to strike the ball carrier, but my experience is that unless winning the match is vital(like a tourney), if there are lots of targets between the hitters and the ball carrier, they'll just chew through the flesh wall instead of making risky moves to prevent scoring.
Netters and clubbers are tricky, I suppose. I agree that sometimes less is more, but more often than not less is in fact less. Boy that got messy. On one hand, I feel they add some more variety to the team. One of the major problems with the basic stunty teams(gobbos and flings) were always, in my mind, that they were boring. There is not much variety in the players, with only big guys and stunties, and very few skills to chose from. Ofcourse, this is part of stunty, but most teams atleast have secret weapons to spice them up. Squig herders also lack TTM, which is one of the best options for the little guys to shine. They are also part of the squig herder fluff.
On the other hand, tackle and dirty player ARE very powerful skills in stunty, and so may be over powered. There may be other skills worth using instead, but these should preferably be in line with the fluff: diving catch for netters, in addition to being fairy useless(how often do stunties play the passing game?) doesn't fit their role. Diving tackle would work, but I find this seems to be the first skill most people pick for their stunties, so starting with it really isn't much of an advantage.
As for the frenzying, no hands squigs and the cave troll, I'll just agree with the previous poster: what would be the point? We're trying to make a team that's different from the existing goblins. No TTM and bouncy ballhandling is part of that.
Damn, I make some long posts... |
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