Petter
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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 Posted:
Jan 31, 2004 - 05:38 |
 
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I have played almost forty games in the faction division and a few things with the system makes me considering to drop the team and the division alltogether.
1. People who lose more than they win stay in F1.
2. People cherrypick games.
3. Very little effort is required to stay in your faction.
4. You win nothing if you're #1 after a season.
1.
There must be a fundamental system flaw if you can lose more games than you win and still stick around in your faction. Maybe you should get replaced by some up-and-coming team if this is what happens?
2.
Bashy teams stand little chance since you need so few games. With 8 possible games and almost 20 opponents, a lot of people look for the 8 softest/easisest opponents. This gives a situation where it's not longer the BEST or TOUGHEST team that stays in faction, but rather those that look soft or beatable but still keep winning.
3.
It's simply not very interesting when it's so easy to just stick in there...
4.
Winning a season should be rewarded to promote competetiveness!
IDEA:
Make Faction (1 at least) semi-scheduled.. round-robin or open round-robin style. 1 forfeit per season at some (-50 points?) cost...
-- Petter
ps. As always, thanks for FUMBBL - I love it! |
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Mully
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Jan 31, 2004 - 07:07 |
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Amen brother.
Christer has done a great job adjusting the rules to make factions better but you can't control how people act. I have 0 games in faction #1 and all 6 people I've challenged just say "I dont play CDs". The funny thing is Petter was the last one I challenged. He said "I don't want to play CDs. And I can dodge you if I want. That's the problem with factions."
So I'll just go back to level #2 where players aren't so anal about their teams. I like the ideas Petter floated above. Maybe have it so in faction #1 you have 2 random mandatory games you have to play or receive negative points, then the rest of the game are voluntary.
A separate idea I had was unrank all faction teams. That would make some of the "ranking whores" a little less anal about faction games as well.
Anyhow, thanks for the work Christer |
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Britnoth
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Jan 31, 2004 - 08:35 |
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Hmm,
1. Is this directed at me? 
Yes, teams that get promoted are those that play the most games... this was clear from the start. It promotes actually playing games, not cherry picking IMO.
2. Again... this is intended I thought... and really, all this 'my poor CD/dwarf team, why don't your amazons/blodge elves play them?' is pretty lame. If you can't find games play a more balanced race. There are several orc teams still in F1, and noone is saying those aren't bashy.
3. My 50 game team I still find interesting thanks.
4. Agreed... but thats an issue of the game not rewarding winning enough anyway, not just in factions. In open its better to survive than to win, and even in factions its somewhat similar.
The way factions work is fine... if you have strict promotion relegation as you wish then all the elves will be at the top and all the bashy teams at the bottom... leaving it even worse than it is now, at least bashy teams can get promoted if they play enough games. Thats the penalty you pay for having av9. |
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Mezir
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Jan 31, 2004 - 11:12 |
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| Britnoth wrote: | | 2. If you can't find games play a more balanced race. |
That cracks me up. Dwarfs and CDs are fine as they are. Stop taking Dodge exclusively and you won't be in so much trouble when you have to match them. |
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Azurus
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Jan 31, 2004 - 19:28 |
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[quote="Petter"][qoute]
1.
There must be a fundamental system flaw if you can lose more games than you win and still stick around in your faction. Maybe you should get replaced by some up-and-coming team if this is what happens?[/qoute]
Why? It happens in almost all real-life sports. You're safe as long as you are not THE WORST team in the division. This is not a problem. By definition, at least half the teams will lose more than they win, which is way too big of a team turnover cycle, since it means it's easier to get promoted.
[quote="Petter"][qoute]
2.
Bashy teams stand little chance since you need so few games. With 8 possible games and almost 20 opponents, a lot of people look for the 8 softest/easisest opponents. This gives a situation where it's not longer the BEST or TOUGHEST team that stays in faction, but rather those that look soft or beatable but still keep winning.[/qoute]
Can't see how this is true. If half the teams are bashy, half dodgy, and the dodgy teams only play each other, then that leaves the bashy teams to play each other. It's the same number of games. Not a desirable situation, of course, but it doesn't actually harm the bashy team's results unless OTHER BASHY TEAMS are also cherrypicking games by playing only dodgers.
Ok. I know this sounds like I don't agree, but I kinda do. I stopped playing in factions long ago, simply because it isn't really suited to an open style of play.
Factions needs a schedule. If, each round, the site selected x teams who you must play (with the proviso that you are auto-relegated if you don't), I would prefer that. I also like the idea about unranking all factions teams. The faction structure is a ranking system in itself.
Some people would say that a schedule would produce a bash-only league, but that's just if you're scared. I play a dark elf team in divX, and it is MUCH easier to win games against bashy teams than against other elves. A schedule might create a system whereby the cherry-picking coaches don't play AT ALL, which sounds like a good step to me.
[edit] hmmm, messed up the qoutes somehow  |
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Jugular
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Jan 31, 2004 - 20:51 |
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cause you spelt it wrong the word is spelt quote not qoute.  |
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Jared
Joined: Aug 16, 2003
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Jan 31, 2004 - 21:28 |
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Excuse me, i picked chaos dwarves originally when faction started, first 2 cycles i ended up down into qualifying because my team sucked, then i managed to get like 4 games in a fortnight with a qualifying faction of about 30, i would have had 8 but it was rare that anyone played me (Cd are balanced btw, lizards arnt but thats neither here nor there) i got promoted, managed something like one game or 2 the other 17 people said 'ooh i dont want to play cd they are too bashy' or 'i dont want to play cd its too boring' or 'id rather play an easier team' or 'i dont want my bashy team to play a bashy team its no fun' or best of all 'i dont think i can win that game' (that from a game id have got handicaps from.
Now quite often the teams that refused me and dwarf teams didnt have dodge or had far more tr,
Yet because its almost unheard of for factions other than 1 to have all the possible games played people cherrypick, also they do that because they havnt made the mental dissociation between normal open div and faction,
the idea of 2 mandatory matches and up to 6 challenge matches would be better |
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Jared
Joined: Aug 16, 2003
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Jan 31, 2004 - 21:29 |
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Jared
Joined: Aug 16, 2003
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Jan 31, 2004 - 21:32 |
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as a final point the penultimate game i manged to play with my Cd was vs another cd team belonging to golroc a team that had about 70tr and ts more than me, (why did i play him because my faction policy is never turn a game down) surprise i won quite convincingly |
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Britnoth
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Jan 31, 2004 - 21:43 |
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| Mezir wrote: | | Britnoth wrote: | | 2. If you can't find games play a more balanced race. |
That cracks me up. Dwarfs and CDs are fine as they are. Stop taking Dodge exclusively and you won't be in so much trouble when you have to match them. |
.... heh since when can I choose to not have dodge on an amazon team?
Dwarves + CD are boring to play against. I am never 'in trouble' because the point is I DONT HAVE TO MATCH THEM IF I DONT WISH TO, please try reading what is posted in future - the whole point is you should accept the benefits and penalties of each race when you choose it. If you pick one that others consider boring and overpowered then expect not to get many game offers.  |
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AeoN2
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Jan 31, 2004 - 22:14 |
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I think some people take Faction (and bloodbowl in general) a bit too seriously... I think Faction is fun, so it has already reached it's potential for me...
--
AeoN2 |
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cusi
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Jan 31, 2004 - 22:37 |
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i consider norse wood elfs and zons boring and overpowered and never play them 8?) |
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Mezir
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Jan 31, 2004 - 22:42 |
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The point in Faction is that you actually play against all available opponents instead of avoiding the teams you consider "ooh I can't play that you have Tackle I have Dodge". Faction is not Open. By not playing certain teams you are being a munchkin, since you will play only against those teams against which you have an advantage. The point of Bloodbowl is that teams are balanced when the entire group is taken into account. Zons are only balanced if you take into account that they have to play Dwarfs from time to time. Take that away, and Amazons are overpowered and boring to play against.
Of course I don't have to play Amazons. And so I don't. I'd rather play a Dwarf team. |
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Britnoth
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Jan 31, 2004 - 23:27 |
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SO dwarfs are balanced against all other teams cept those with dodge, that they get a huge advantage over? What total crap. Amazons were made after dwarves.... so dwarves COULDNT have been balanced with amazons in mind. And as for zons being overpowered..... sure thats why theres so many 250+ tr zon teams in open....... pffft |
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CircularLogic
Joined: Aug 22, 2003
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Feb 01, 2004 - 01:11 |
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| Azurus wrote: | | By definition, at least half the teams will lose more than they win, which is way too big of a team turnover cycle, since it means it's easier to get promoted. |
That´s untrue. Imagine 3 players: 1 with 2 loss and the other 2 with 1 win and one draw.
| Britnoth wrote: | | SO dwarfs are balanced against all other teams cept those with dodge, that they get a huge advantage over? What total crap. Amazons were made after dwarves.... so dwarves COULDNT have been balanced with amazons in mind. And as for zons being overpowered..... sure thats why theres so many 250+ tr zon teams in open....... pffft |
Amazons were created with dwarves in mind. Of course they have a VERY hard time, but everyone else has a hard time to bring down those blodgers and have to dedicate skills for it.
The thing is, that amazons are a team that starts out very strong and gets weaker later on, similar like norse. So if you cry, that a TR300 chaos-team will beat your zons shows a very poor understanding of your team. Chaos is a team, that start very weak, but grows to an immense power.
So for league-play amazons are perfectly balanced. They win the first 10 games, struggle the next 10 and have a very hard time the last 10. Chaos e.g. has the same problem reversed. So should a chaos-coach dodge amazons in their first games??
ON THE TOPIC:
Dodging is an immense problem for me. I have a F1-orc-team and the only coaches that play me are the brave High-Elf-coach and the 2 chaos-choaches. Nearly everyone else dodges me... including some undead-coach Using some semi-open-format should improve the situation.
My suggestions:
1)Increase the lenght of each round to 1 month. Drop the maximum number of games, so that one can play as many games as he/she likes.
2) Combine this with some kind of prize. EG remove one niggle from a team of the winners choice (faction-team excluded) or something similar. That would encourage coaches to play as many games as possible. |
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