On1
Joined: Jul 12, 2004
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 Posted:
Aug 24, 2010 - 15:59 |
 
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Eddy
Joined: Aug 04, 2004
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Aug 24, 2010 - 16:03 |
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| On1 wrote: | that would require uhm.. cat-like-reflexes  far from turnbased yeah? |
The way I explained, yes. But it's just a general idea. You could click a button to enter "reflexion mode" which would prompt for every skill (or every pre-selected skill). Obviously, you wouldn't chose that if you were doing something else.
But even if it did need the cat-like reflexes, maybe it would be better than to interrupt the flow of the game so badly, or not implement the choice at all because of these concerns. I dunno, just throwing ideas =) |
_________________
'The generation of random numbers is too important to be left to chance.'
Robert R. Coveyou |
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Lakrillo
Joined: Sep 12, 2007
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Aug 24, 2010 - 17:42 |
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I never said that possibility to use apo on KO would go away. I was just saying that myself i would rather want that as a possibility to turn on and off, than to turn dodge question on and off.
I would have apo-ko on if i played an important game like a major, but not in a casual game. |
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XZCion
Joined: Jul 05, 2004
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Aug 27, 2010 - 05:23 |
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Optional things that could be implented.. If Kalimar has time :]
Ask always is good if you want that level of control, but can bog down a game, see below for a suggested fix to this.
Ask never is good if you want to just play.
Ask sometimes would probably only work for some skills, such as the example of rolling a double on a sneaky dirty player that equals the AV, or diving tackle if DT would actually could stop the dodge, or accurate when it means the difference of hold or inaccurate and inaccurate and accurate. You could even have check boxes for the different conditions (i.e. one for hold/inacc and one for inacc/acc).
Perhaps instead of 'USE' and 'DON'T USE' there could be an optional 'WAIT' button that pops up briefly after an action that has a choice that is not often taken, such as the dodge on being blocked examples, as Eddy suggested.
I.e. my player with dodge gets blocked, a popup for 'WAIT' with a very short countdown appears (2-5 seconds sort of time), if i do nothing, the default action is taken, or i can press 'WAIT', probably by pressing the space bar as well as clicking, if i want to think about it. a longer timer then comes up with the 'USE' and 'DON'T USE' buttons on it, with the default action again to be selected at the end of that timer.
This may get spammy on some teams (i'm looking at you zon's) but even popping up for every block in a turn, it would allow the active players turn to proceed with minimal interuption, just a bit of perceived lag after a 'POW!' result, while still allowing the inactive player time to think if required.
Additionally the 'wait button' option could replace the 'always ask' option for a large number of skills, such as using the apoth, well, every time... or maybe just on lino's:]
The point being the more skills this sort of technique is used on the less is becomes a 'what what that that popped up' and more a 'ok, i wasn't expecting that pop-up, i'll press wait and read it' sort of situation.
Thoughts?
p.s. A large single word in a distincive colour, or a representitive icon would go a long way to make these wait popups much more useful.
i.e. a large red + and the affected players icon for 'do you want to use an apothecary'. A large POW! with the blocker and the blockees icons, maybe skill lists, for the dodge example, etc.
The Icons would be learnt by all the players quite quickly I'm willing to bet :] |
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Carnis
Joined: Feb 03, 2009
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Aug 27, 2010 - 09:00 |
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Btw isnt it that sidestep use currently is not optional? Doesnt the popup say "ok", instead of do you want to use yes/no? That would be a minor change I'd like implemented right away, because sometimes its better not to use SS as the stepping squares are worse than the one you would be pushed to. |
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RedDevilCG
Joined: Jan 09, 2010
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Aug 27, 2010 - 09:10 |
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Yeah, I mentioned this to Kalimar at some point in IRC. I'm also hoping it will be a simple change, as I hate making even more work for the poor guy ^^ |
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gandresch
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Aug 27, 2010 - 10:44 |
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You have to differentiate between "important" "less important" and "not imprtant" and it is essential, that Kalimar has an "option" in the client to make all of this changes in an easy way. Therefor it is always good, to tell him about such changes early in the process, so he can react on the changes and even if he doesn't implement them at once, create the surrounding for such an implementation.
I would say, that implementing new skills is "less important", correcting bugs in the curent implemented skills is "important" and making this skills work optional is "less important". "Not important" are such things like special play cards, which used to become more important in the end, but to implement a good client, they are certainly not. "Not important" are changes in the graphics of the client, as the momentary graphics work fine for most of the players.
But still Kalimar has to keep these changes in mind - and therefor he got to know about them! |
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uzkulak
Joined: Mar 30, 2004
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Aug 27, 2010 - 11:42 |
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| XZCion wrote: | Perhaps instead of 'USE' and 'DON'T USE' there could be an optional 'WAIT' button that pops up briefly after an action that has a choice that is not often taken, such as the dodge on being blocked examples, as Eddy suggested.
I.e. my player with dodge gets blocked, a popup for 'WAIT' with a very short countdown appears (2-5 seconds sort of time), if i do nothing, the default action is taken, or i can press 'WAIT', probably by pressing the space bar as well as clicking, if i want to think about it. a longer timer then comes up with the 'USE' and 'DON'T USE' buttons on it, with the default action again to be selected at the end of that timer.
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I think this is a good idea. However a wait of 2-5 secs is too long if this were to be the solution for every time an optional skill would be used. (Let's stick with using dodge to avoid getting knocked over on a POW! as the example). The vast majority of the time any player would avoid having his players knocked down. However, there are a couple of situations where you might prefer it. The most obvious ones being to avoid a surf - or to stop a chainpush 1turn td.
If each coach were to have a "settings" menu in the client - to be established before a game and hopefully remembered between matches - then would it be possible to specify here when you would like to be asked to use an optional skill. For example "give me the option to wait/ask me whether to use dodge with a POW! result 1. Never, 2a. on or after turn "#", 2b. when I am "x" squares from the board edge, 3. Always". I think it would be pretty much the same options for tackle.
Skills like foul appearance and guard IMO are always used. So, implementing this for them would seem a waste of time.
Sidestep could have a setting like "ask me when to use ss 1. Never, 2. If all normal pushed to squares are occupied."
The reason for using player settings/preferences is to speed up play and also to ensure that these options would not be considered coaching aids. |
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uuni
Joined: Mar 12, 2010
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Aug 27, 2010 - 15:05 |
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There is a discussion on talkfantasyfootball.org can contribute something to this: http://www.talkfantasyfootball.org/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=31202&hilit=mandatory+skill
The discussion was about the Heckler card that prevents opposing player to use any skill that is not mandatory, which gave rise to the question, which skills are mandatory in LRB6. However there was no BBRC participation in the discussion.
The reason for this question is that there appears not to be a consistent way to mark the skill as mandatory as opposed to the base rule that all skill use is optional unless specified in the skill description to be mandatory. A suggestion is made to use "must" as a marking word for future editions.
Latest list of skills, description of which declare them mandatory seems following:
Greyhound:| Quote: | - Always Hungry
- Animosity
- Ball & Chain
- Big Hand (I'm surprised I would have allowed this as optional)
- Blood Lust
- Bonehead (this rule uses MUST whereas Wild Animal didn't for some reason)
- Chainsaw
- Claw (again, big surprise, but the rule is as imperative as Wild animal)
- Decay
- Dirty Player (??? But I guess you can decide not to break armour by choosing the Injury Roll to allow you the flexibility of changing the result)
- Disturbing Presence
- Fan Favourite
- Foul Appearance
- Frenzy
- Guard (the biggest surprise really)
- Loner
- Mighty Blow (Like dirty Player, you can control the use of the skill by switching the +1 to whichever, giving you a way to work around the skill should you want not to break armour, however this skill reads as "mandatory" as wild animal: "Add 1 to any Armour or Injury roll...")
- Nerves of Steel
- No Hands
- Prehensile Tail
- Really Stupid (again the use of Must is re-assuring)
- Regeneration (the point of contention in this thread)
- Safe Throw (again ??? no mention of may/could/is allowed, just straight statements)
- Secret Weapon
- Sneaky Git (you must stay on the pitch apparently)
- Strip Ball
- Stunty (a mix of both, the skill is a mix of must/may)
- Tackle (I always played it as optional!)
- Take Root
- Thick Skull
- Titchy (mix of may/must)
- Two heads
- Wild Animal |
So according to this poster, you can not decide not to use any of these listed skills. The participants have gathered these skills by reading all skill descriptions from the rulebook. However, it would be really handy to have some sort of "officially" accepted list.
This sort of a skill list could be useful in future when deciding or discussing possibly optional skill use. |
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gandresch
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Aug 27, 2010 - 15:13 |
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Hi,
that is quite wrong. You can decide to use Safe Throw or not (in both ways, interception and fumble). You can decide to use DP or not, which makes sense, if you have Sneaky Git.
The thing is, that every skill is optional. That is mentioned somewhere in the rulebook. You can use every skill or just don't. You have no options on the usage of Stunty, Bone-head and such stuff. That is mentioned, too (and that paragraph is not in the skill description)
Greets,
gan |
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uuni
Joined: Mar 12, 2010
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Aug 27, 2010 - 15:49 |
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gandresch| Quote: | | That is mentioned somewhere in the rulebook. |
Relevant parts of the rulebook (LRB6):
SKILLS (p 23):| Quote: | This section of the rules includes lots more skills for players to use. The specific rules for each skill can be found on pages 43 to 48. Each entry also lists which category the skill belongs to (i.e. Passing, General, Mutation, etc). A skill’s category effects which players can access it, as described later on in the rules for Blood Bowl leagues (see pages 26 and 27). Unless otherwise stated in the skill description, the following rules apply to all skills:
1. All bonuses/modifiers from skills can be combined.
2. Skills may be used an unlimited number of times per Action.
3. Some skills refer to pushing a player back in order to work.
These skills will work as long as you roll a result of ‘Pushed’,
‘Defender Stumbles’, or ‘Defender Down’ on the Block dice.
4. Skill use is not mandatory.
5. You can choose to use a skill that affects a dice roll after
rolling the dice (e.g. Diving Tackle does not need to be used until
after seeing the result of the Dodge roll).
6. Only Extraordinary skills work when a player is Prone or
Stunned.
7. A skill may only be taken once per player. |
Safe Throw (p47):| Quote: | | This player is an expert at throwing the ball in a way so as to make it even more difficult for any opponent to intercept it. If a pass made by this player is ever intercepted then the Safe Throw player may make an unmodified Agility roll. If this is successful then the interception is cancelled out and the passing sequence continues as normal. In addition if this player fumbles a pass of a ball (not a bomb or team-mate) on any roll other than a natural 1 then he manages to keep hold of the ball instead of suffering a fumble and the team does not suffer a turnover. |
The interesting part is comparing that skill description to that of Stunty, which is generally taken partly as a mandatory skill:
Stunty (p47):| Quote: | | The player is so small that they are very difficult to tackle because they can duck underneath opposing players’ outstretched arms and run between their legs. On the other hand, Stunty players are just a bit too small to throw the ball very well, and are easily injured. To represent these things a player with the Stunty skill may ignore any enemy tackle zones on the square he is moving to when he makes a Dodge roll (i.e., they always end up with a +1 Dodge roll modifier), but must subtract 1 from the roll when they pass. In addition, this player treats a roll of 7 and 9 on the Injury table after any modifiers have been applied as a KO'd and Badly Hurt result respectively rather than the normal results. Stunties that are armed with a Secret Weapon are not allowed to ignore enemy tackle zones, but still suffer the other penalties. |
So I stand corrected. Safe throw seems partly optional skill as seems Stunty, stunties must take worse hits and Safe Throwers must keep some fumbled balls in hand. This leads us to the conclusion that the list I previously referred might contain inaccuracies or errors, which is valuable knowledge.
I stay with my original plead: | Quote: | | However, it would be really handy to have some sort of "officially" accepted list. This sort of a skill list could be useful in future when deciding or discussing possibly optional skill use. |
Of course the most important rule of Blood Bowl is the rule of House ruling (p24), so the implementation of FFB-client is always correct: | Quote: | | In a league, the Commissioner’s word is LAW. He is allowed to change or modify any of the Blood Bowl rules as he sees fit, including any of the League Rules that follow. |
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XZCion
Joined: Jul 05, 2004
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Aug 28, 2010 - 00:41 |
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| uzkulak wrote: | If each coach were to have a "settings" menu in the client - to be established before a game and hopefully remembered between matches - then would it be possible to specify here when you would like to be asked to use an optional skill. For example "give me the option to wait/ask me whether to use dodge with a POW! result 1. Never, 2a. on or after turn "#", 2b. when I am "x" squares from the board edge, 3. Always". I think it would be pretty much the same options for tackle.
Sidestep could have a setting like "ask me when to use ss 1. Never, 2. If all normal pushed to squares are occupied."
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To your first point, that's alot of extra coding once you start going through all the possible skills and all the possible exceptions, and even then how many people will end up selecting 'always' or 'never'? I'm going to continue advocating a universal wait popup because; it's simple, it's extendable and reusable, it won't happen THAT often.
(i.e. in the dodge case you'd only get it when your opponent blocks a player with dodge AND he rolls a pow!. conversely he should also get a popup for using tackle in the circumstance (if you've turned on the option) in case he is going for a chain push.)
I do agree that 5 seconds is probably a longer wait that what we'd be comfortable with. I'm sure a good time could be found with playtesting.
As for sidestep, why are the original 3 squares not an option to be pushed back to when using it?
| CRP wrote: | Side Step (Agility)
A player with this skill is an expert at stepping neatly out of the way of an
attacker. To represent this ability, his coach may choose which square
the player is moved to when he is pushed back, rather than the opposing
coach. Furthermore, the coach may choose to move the player to any
adjacent square, not just the three squares shown on the Push Back
diagram. Note that the player may not use this skill if there are no open
squares on the pitch adjacent to this player. Note that the coach may
choose which square the player is moved to even if the player is
Knocked Down after the push back. |
Emphasis mine. |
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Eddy
Joined: Aug 04, 2004
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Aug 28, 2010 - 00:46 |
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When the 3 normal squares are all occupied, then you have to Sidestep in one of the free squares. Unless you trigger a chain-push by not sidestepping. That way, the sidestepping player actually controls where he's being pushed, which is the point of Sidestep, instead of being manipulated out of the way.
Also, I wanted to comment on Tackle: I understand why Tackle was considered a "must-use" skill. If you want to set up a chain push and you decide not to use Tackle, then your opponent can decide not to use Dodge, and everyone's back to square one. |
_________________
'The generation of random numbers is too important to be left to chance.'
Robert R. Coveyou |
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XZCion
Joined: Jul 05, 2004
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| Posted:
Aug 28, 2010 - 00:59 |
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Point.
And now donning the devils horns: What if you're opponent has it set to 'always' or is not paying attention? |
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nin
Joined: May 27, 2005
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Aug 28, 2010 - 16:55 |
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The list of mandatory skills above seems a bit excesive.
First: 4. Skill use is not mandatory.
Second: Guard (Strenght) A player with this skill assists an offensive or defensive block even if he is in another player's tackle zone. This skill may not be used to assist a foul.
As it is not explicitly stated that Guard is mandatory, I think it's not.
On the other hand, a non mandatory Guard doesn't look like a priority (or makes much sense at all) for the client. (It's just an example of the posible flaws in the list)
*I'd like to see the DP+Sneaky Git combo implemented in the client (only really needs the pop up for DP on armor + Double... and the client allready checks most things)
*Same goes for Wrestle (as it is) and may be Stand Firm and defensive Dodge.
*Optional use of Tackle or Fend looks a bit excesive (arguably you could not use Tackle and your opponent could think you are wrong and use Dodge... but doesn't look worth the delay to me)
*About optional Catch use, if it is your turn and have a RR you can use, I think the client asks you, so it could be done.. but probably needs a bit of coding (for relatively little gain?).
On the attention and delay thing, the "don't ask me, default use yes" setting could be coupled with a countdown?
To avoid "Sorry I was setting aflame the cat" issues? |
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