RC
Joined: Sep 22, 2005
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 Posted:
Dec 26, 2010 - 16:41 |
 
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| Astarael wrote: | | Wreckage wrote: | | asta: If people don't play them competetive and rather focus on fouling they will have a much worse winning ratio. I can only reference my only experience with that race and that's that I win with them and lose against them, no matter what race I play. So yes, I have a pretty high opiinion of them. |
A valid point but let's have a look at your (win%)win/tie/losses with each race.
Amazon: (70) 59/13/21
Chaos: (64) 62/19/31
Chaos Dwarf: (73) 78/16/24
Dark Elf: (66) 15/3/7
Dwarf: (65) 48/14/22
Elf: (72) 27/2/10
Goblin: No data
Halfling: (53) 24/10/21
High Elf: (68 ) 128/44/50
Human: (69) 58/13/22
Khemri: (61) 44/9/26
Lizardmen: (61) 18/3/11
Necromantic: (63) 37/11/20
Norse: (70) 60/5/24
Nurgle: No data
Ogre: (62) 36/7/21
Orc: (70) 45/18/14
Skaven: (68 ) 19/3/8
Undead: No data.
Vampire: (72) 21/7/6
Wood Elf: (52) 55/25/50
It seems you're better with 16 of the other races.
I've played Khemri a lot and I'd like to think I'm fairly good with them compared to my quality with other races for that. However, unless you get lucky with +ag and +ma then a team with only two ma6+ and no ag3 is difficult to control the ball with, you can get outpositioned by most teams and don't have the backup of being able to offload the ball to safety as easily. It's not impossible, and played well you can still do well with them.. but it's harder than other races. In LRB6 you do have slightly better ma so positioning is slightly better which is a small boost, with that I can agree. However, you're still only at four ma6+ so a good coach will still be able to outposition you, the agile teams will be able to outmanouver and be harder to whittle down. And the bashy teams will now outbash you if they're sensible and target the skeletons (even with thick skull).
Imo they've gone from 'competitive but underdogs' to 'challenge race'. Aka a race you use simply because they're hard to do well with.
Stats taken from: http://fumbbl.com/FUMBBL.php?page=coaches |
Brr, hope you have a nice and easy way of doing that instead of looking up wrecks stats for each and every race. |
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Mr_Foulscumm
Joined: Mar 05, 2005
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| Posted:
Dec 26, 2010 - 17:08 |
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The problem with Khemri is that if you can't afford to screw up your positioning on a single turn. Recovering a lost ball is such a pain in the ass for Khemri. And if you lose the ball vs high AG teams well... game over. |
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Wreckage
Joined: Aug 15, 2004
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| Posted:
Dec 26, 2010 - 17:28 |
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asta: you make a really good point.
And I don't want to sound unconvincable or be disresprectull towards all those great coaches of you who tell me differently. I really respect their opinion and accept that I may be wrong. But my mind about this race is pretty much made and that is that they just don't work the way they are.
My own winning stats sadly fail to convince me differently since I have a good idea about how and when they happend.
It's been quite a while ago since I really played Khemri and I believe that my abilities have slowly increased in time. This may not be refelcted by my ranking since i basically stopped playing R and winning % is a quite unreflected indicator in the first place but I tend to accept these data, simply because we mostly won'T get any better data.
Regarding Khemri in Ranked: They are not a good race to get games. Lets make no illusions about that. MY philiosohpy has always been to rather challenge opponents with much higher TS and I usually percieved to beat them anyways. I'm not sure how ties are worked in these stats but I usually ignore these results myself completly.
My first success I ever had in ranked was with Khemri. It was a steady rise from a 138 CR coach to a 171 CR coach wich is basically the same level where I am now. In aknowledgement of this vast improvement I could never do differently then appreciate the race for it.
Quite a while later when I was struggeling with elves and amazons in blackbox I finally managed to break the Top10 again with a Khemri team and managed to end my shadow existance. It was the same race and it helped where Orks proofed too slow and with too little fighting power, dwarves as too unorganised, elves as too fragile, undead as having too little of everything, chaos as too difficult to develop that this race would help me to give me a good life. And a bitter taste because the path of destruction the team left behind was sucking the fun right out of the game for everyone else.
That's why I will never appereciate that race and always despise it.
Then, beyond the TR 200 where every team eventually gets, things started to change. Elves became unstoppable, Chaos got bashier then Kehmri themselves, Orcs could competete in strengh and so on... On my first Khemri team i didn't have a single tackler and that started to just hurt at some point.
Suddenly most of the games were lost and winning stats were ruined. Nevertheless I never blamed the race for it. I firmly believe that with a more carefull skilling they can prevail even there. It was only to me to find that path and I will proof it once the client goes life. With all the disadvanatages the race will face there, without having a bad conciouss about it.
If you guys have a different opinion about it so be it you surely are very smart guys, but afaic the changes are good because the race had too many advantages.
In the end all of our opinions don'T matter in the sense that the changes have been made and I think we can agree on one thing: The new Khemri are much less competetive then the old ones.
edit: For reference please also look at this old box team of mine. Please note that from of the six losses the team faced four were in the last four games. http://fumbbl.com/FUMBBL.php?page=team&op=view&showmatches=1&team_id=593683 |
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RedDevilCG
Joined: Jan 09, 2010
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Dec 26, 2010 - 18:48 |
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Ahhh Khemri. The consistent, stalling, 1-0 winners.  |
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Astarael
Joined: Aug 14, 2005
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Dec 27, 2010 - 02:03 |
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| Wreckage wrote: | | In the end all of our opinions don'T matter in the sense that the changes have been made and I think we can agree on one thing: The new Khemri are much less competetive then the old ones. |
I agree fully with both those statements.
Another point for consideration is the fact that Khemri never won a major (at this point I'm just talking in general, not in reply to anyone) whereas Orcs won 7. Yet Khemri got nerfed and Orcs afaik have been left pretty much unchanged.
Whilst I can see WHY they nerfed Khemri (and Ogres for similar reasons), I don't feel they SHOULD have. In both cases it's taking steps towards killing of the usability of a race to facilitate a specific way of playing (not bash).
Sidenote: I'm quite aware other races can still bash, but when two of the main bashy races get nerfed I'm quite sure it wasn't drawing straws 
Side side note: Also the Ogre nerf is even more senseless as they weren't even 2nd bashiest, it went Khemri -> Dwarf -> Ogre. Lucky shorties  |
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Mr_Foulscumm
Joined: Mar 05, 2005
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| Posted:
Dec 27, 2010 - 02:18 |
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| Astarael wrote: | | Side side note: Also the Ogre nerf is even more senseless as they weren't even 2nd bashiest, it went Khemri -> Dwarf -> Ogre. Lucky shorties |
The best part is that they strengthened the Dwarf team on top of that  |
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BooAhl
Joined: Sep 02, 2004
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| Posted:
Dec 27, 2010 - 02:47 |
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| Mr_Foulscumm wrote: | | Astarael wrote: | | Side side note: Also the Ogre nerf is even more senseless as they weren't even 2nd bashiest, it went Khemri -> Dwarf -> Ogre. Lucky shorties |
The best part is that they strengthened the Dwarf team on top of that |
Did they? How? |
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Mr_Foulscumm
Joined: Mar 05, 2005
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Dec 27, 2010 - 02:55 |
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| BooAhl wrote: | | Mr_Foulscumm wrote: | | Astarael wrote: | | Side side note: Also the Ogre nerf is even more senseless as they weren't even 2nd bashiest, it went Khemri -> Dwarf -> Ogre. Lucky shorties |
The best part is that they strengthened the Dwarf team on top of that |
Did they? How? |
I know it's just a minor tweak. The Death Roller. Not all that great, but ST7 players do have their uses and definitely something the dorfs didn't have before.
edit: as a permanent player that is. |
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LucaAnt
Joined: Apr 24, 2006
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Dec 27, 2010 - 04:18 |
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If you answer new you're not a khemri player, if you said old, you are. |
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Wreckage
Joined: Aug 15, 2004
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Dec 27, 2010 - 11:56 |
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| BooAhl wrote: | | Mr_Foulscumm wrote: | | Astarael wrote: | | Side side note: Also the Ogre nerf is even more senseless as they weren't even 2nd bashiest, it went Khemri -> Dwarf -> Ogre. Lucky shorties |
The best part is that they strengthened the Dwarf team on top of that |
Did they? How? |
I don't see the death roller as an improvement. But I see the dwarf teams profiting the most of all races from the new piling on. They have already lots of skills and their options what efficient skills to take besides guard and mighty blow were always limited. |
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zakatan
Joined: May 17, 2008
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Dec 27, 2010 - 12:22 |
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| Wreckage wrote: | | BooAhl wrote: | | Mr_Foulscumm wrote: | | Astarael wrote: | | Side side note: Also the Ogre nerf is even more senseless as they weren't even 2nd bashiest, it went Khemri -> Dwarf -> Ogre. Lucky shorties |
The best part is that they strengthened the Dwarf team on top of that |
Did they? How? |
I don't see the death roller as an improvement. But I see the dwarf teams profiting the most of all races from the new piling on. They have already lots of skills and their options what efficient skills to take besides guard and mighty blow were always limited. |
also the new thick skull is slightly better than the previous version |
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Wreckage
Joined: Aug 15, 2004
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Dec 27, 2010 - 13:32 |
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| Astarael wrote: |
Another point for consideration is the fact that Khemri never won a major whereas Orcs won 7 |
My personal opinion is that orcs should be nerved to 2 blitzers. (Khemri as mentioned just removed. Ogres should get support of 2 trolls and 4 goblins and otherwise remain the same.)
Khemri at least once reached a major final. They definatly require stat ups on the higher levels wich means the likelyness of creating a good Khemri team there is low. Orcs are just the easiest race to skill up. That's also represented by the fact that about roughly 40% of all participants are orc teams. They would be the most successfull team if the tournaments would be decided by random chance  |
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uzkulak
Joined: Mar 30, 2004
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Dec 27, 2010 - 13:39 |
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And more skills to chose from, which only a highly skilled team like dwarves can really appreciate and make the most use of. Jump up on doubles makes PO now very useful for dwarves. Also grab+guard is great and grab is also very useful for managing crowd surfs. Not to mention that av10 longbeards will now be commonplace, and there are plenty of teams that dont have claw... |
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Ancre
Joined: Aug 17, 2009
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Dec 27, 2010 - 17:26 |
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| uzkulak wrote: | | And more skills to chose from, which only a highly skilled team like dwarves can really appreciate and make the most use of. Jump up on doubles makes PO now very useful for dwarves. Also grab+guard is great and grab is also very useful for managing crowd surfs. Not to mention that av10 longbeards will now be commonplace, and there are plenty of teams that dont have claw... |
And Standfirm is a single roll now ! |
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Mr_Foulscumm
Joined: Mar 05, 2005
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| Posted:
Dec 27, 2010 - 18:02 |
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| Ancre wrote: | | uzkulak wrote: | | And more skills to chose from, which only a highly skilled team like dwarves can really appreciate and make the most use of. Jump up on doubles makes PO now very useful for dwarves. Also grab+guard is great and grab is also very useful for managing crowd surfs. Not to mention that av10 longbeards will now be commonplace, and there are plenty of teams that dont have claw... |
And Standfirm is a single roll now ! |
But not as good |
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