PainState
Joined: Apr 04, 2007
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 Posted:
Jan 31, 2011 - 20:33 |
 
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| JHassler wrote: | | I would think that if there are major tournaments in Box (now no longer a TV matchup) that people want to win than the meta-gaming of this type is already solved. In other words, if the all-marauder line-up has no shot at winning a major than those coaches are giving up quite a bit to have fun/wins at their target TV range. |
I agree in principal but the reality is that the majority of coaches do not participate in majors. So for the majority of coaches building for a major is not their primary concern when playing matches, it is of no concern at all.
And the maurader only lineup in the box would have a shot...BUT you would need to play a lot of games, have some luck on how the perm damage was distributed on the team.
Once they hit around TV2000 they would have the chances to be one serious team of hurt for your pixels.
But then again at some point the TV advantage that they gained at the low end would slowly erode away as they crept higher in TV. But then again if all they ever took were 20,000 GC skills/mutations they would have one serious skilled up team from top to bottom.
Inducements will be apart of the majors, they have to be. Even if you go by the rule book inducements are still on you just cannot induce Star players or Mercenaries, all the others you can still get. Plus if we go by the rule book it states only the semi final and final have these retrictions...so does that mean the semi and final of the Major? |
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MadTias
Joined: Jun 19, 2004
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Jan 31, 2011 - 20:37 |
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Meh. It's just more fun to beat the "min/max" team with your "fluffy" team. Coaching (and dice) has been known to have some small effect on the outcome. Just think of it as an extra challenge.
And so what if the all-Marauder team wins a major? I for one would find that cool. BB fluff has always been full of extraordinary tales (and cheats).
Oh, and a question to Purple:
| Purplegoo wrote: | | ...Necro, or Pact (these seem to be the main two races affected?) |
Necro? Really? I've found my Necro to be one of the least efficient races in terms of TV. Please tell me what I'm doing wrong, I feel like such a noob.  |
Last edited by MadTias on %b %31, %2011 - %20:%Jan; edited 1 time in total |
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PainState
Joined: Apr 04, 2007
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Jan 31, 2011 - 20:38 |
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back to the orignal post...man the pact team has so much potential to min/max...heck Iam allmost ready to go home and make a new pact team and try this out for 30 games just so I can see were it will all lead to.
Oh the possiblilites......Man this is allmost to good to pass up...a team that might actually make me want to build thats sole purpose is to meta game to max, have a better shot at winning and get me out of my pixel/team hugging ways and stop being a cherry for so many coaches out there.
Thanks for the inspiration Foulscumm 
But then again I would just blow it because a team with out an ogre is just a team I cannot play with. Oh but a mutatable ogre, now that is something new. Iam wavering now.  |
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PainState
Joined: Apr 04, 2007
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Jan 31, 2011 - 20:57 |
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and here they are storming out of the Northern Wastes....ready to destroy, kill, plunder, foul and maim every single pixel in the Box.
Foulscumms Villany
Note at the last minute I decided to not purchase a 7 FF and get an extra reroll...kept the 70,000gc for our coming out party and lower that TV just a little more to rub some salt in...3RR should be enough to start out with. |
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Calthor
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
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Jan 31, 2011 - 21:08 |
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| Calthor wrote: | | But certainly, FLUFF and CHARACTER are not a Ranked-only thing. I like my Blackbox teams with fluff and character. Why the heck would there be anything 'wrong' with that approach in Blackbox? |
| PainState wrote: | | The very simple answer: Because that is contradictory to everything the Box stands for. |
Wow. Everything the Box stands for? What Blackbox is, is a system that randomly assigns you to your opponent. That's it. A system like that does not go against the grain of development and fluff at all. All it does is assign random opponents all the time. That's all. Fluff, character, even development, do not necessary oppose that in any way.
| PainState wrote: | The long answer:
Well for one, fluff and character mean your enjoyment is more derived by hugging pixels, teams, playing games and other things than just winning and nothing else matters. |
Well, as I see it, one doesn't really have much to do with the other. You can 'powergame' all you want - Humans and Amazons at low TV, for example - and still have a groovy strong fluff.
What I'm trying to say is, these two different elements of the game - fluff enjoyment on the one hand and powergame enjoyment on the other hand - are two elements that do not oppose another necessarily. I can be a little pixel-huggy, fluff appreciative and also try my best at winning at the same time. It's like peanut butter and jelly. Fine on its own, but it works great as a team as well.
| PainState wrote: | I know of many coaches who have box teams that have them all fluffed out with pitctures and funny bios and discalimers of how they are going to bury your team into the pitch and so forth.
BUT the box is designed on purpose with a scheduler. Thus TV min/max management is very very very important. So important that some coaches have gotten so good at it that they allmost get more cries of "foul" than the most ardent "cherry picker" in ranked. The Box allmost forces you to become a TV min/maxer if your main focus is to win every match that you play.
The chaos pact team it seems is very easy to Min/Max for effectivness and thus we are on page 4 of the rant. And it would not suprise me that we start seeing alot more of these types of pact teams running around. It does seem from my little dealings with the Box that the majority of the win first everything else second type of coaches gravitate to the Box. And this type team is right up their alley. |
Yes, Blackbox stimulates TV efficiency.
...
So will Ranked when it goes FFB, and so will League. Sure, you can't avoid the efficient teams in Blackbox. But neither would you be able to in a SMACK in Ranked, for example.
And it's in our nature to complain. We complain about cherry pickers in Ranked, and mad efficiency 'remain at perfect TV level' teams in Blackbox. What's new? Nothing. My point is, there are the hardcore players in both Ranked and Blackbox, and there are the more laidback players. In Blackbox as well, and they can have fun without being hardcore.
| PainState wrote: | So to bring this home.
If you are fluffing your team out with charachter and bios and cool pictures you are obviously not attempting to manipulate the box scheduler and because of this you are putting your team at a disadvantage in the scheduler and thus have become a box turnip. (a new term I came up with to reflect the box equal to being a cherry in ranked) 
Box is all about manipulating your team to get a better match up from the scheduler. Just like success in Ranked could be said that you are better at picking a good match up and convincing your opponeet to play you.
Now of course manipulting the scheduler could still go wrong for your team because it does have some random elements out of your control were as in ranked everything is in your control.
But in the long term min/max your TV is the way to go. Not worrying about fluff and all that other stuff that does not help you win matches. |
That's what I don't understand. You are going on about 'manipulating' the Box scheduler. But really what these coaches are doing is optimising their team efficiency as well as remaining on an optimal TV level. And you can do that in Ranked as well - and even enter a lovely SMACK now and then too.
So, to really hit it home myself: What's keeping someone from both adding nice pictures, text and all of that jazz to a team that is TV efficient and sticks on a TV optimum, and thus tries to 'cheat' the scheduler (which, by the way, really won't increase your winning percentage by THAT much)?
Why am I reacting as strongly like I am here? Because I enjoy good fluff, both from me and an opponent, but it does not mean I would not be able to play the powergame as well. At the same time, I also believe Blackbox isn't just about being the hardcore gamer. At its 'core', Blackbox is simply about randomly assigning an opponent at a relatively similar TV. That is all. That brings positive and negative consequences which stimulate some behaviour more than in Ranked, but I find the term 'contradictory' a little... Offensive, almost.
That said, perhaps I'm just wrong and not seeing Blackbox like others do. |
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Adar
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Jan 31, 2011 - 21:29 |
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| PainState wrote: | | Calthor wrote: | | But certainly, FLUFF and CHARACTER are not a Ranked-only thing. I like my Blackbox teams with fluff and character. Why the heck would there be anything 'wrong' with that approach in Blackbox? |
The very simple answer: Because that is contradictory to everything the Box stands for.
The long answer:
Well for one, fluff and character mean your enjoyment is more derived by hugging pixels, teams, playing games and other things than just winning and nothing else matters.
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If you love your pixels, then your not a proper Bloodbowl coach.
A proper fluffy bloodbowl coach should be a calculating murdering machine willing to use his own mother as a cheap way for his star minotaur to exercise blocking. This concept fits just as well for a min/maxing Blackbox coach as a cherrypicking Ranked coach.
Did you know?
A majority of the Fumbbl Coaches
look upon a Blood Bowl as an
opportunity to cause as much
mayhem and destruction as possible.
A sizeable minority do however believe
that gaining an unfair advantage in order
to actually win a bloodbowl game should
be considered more important. This have
caused much angry debate. Both sides do
however agree that something should be
done about the small minority of
peaceful coaches that play to write "fluff",
be social and spoil the fun for everyone else. |
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For all his rage, he's still just a rat in it's cage. |
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PainState
Joined: Apr 04, 2007
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Jan 31, 2011 - 21:51 |
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| Adar wrote: | Did you know?
A majority of the Fumbbl Coaches
look upon a Blood Bowl as an
opportunity to cause as much
mayhem and destruction as possible.
A sizeable minority do however believe
that gaining an unfair advantage in order
to actually win a bloodbowl game should
be considered more important. This have
caused much angry debate. Both sides do
however agree that something should be
done about the small minority of
peaceful coaches that play to write "fluff",
be social and spoil the fun for everyone else. |
My vote as #1 Did you know oF ALL TIME. It is simple yet concise and captures the true essence of Blood Bowl. |
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Comish of the: |
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Frankenstein
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Jan 31, 2011 - 21:59 |
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| Adar wrote: | A proper fluffy bloodbowl coach should be a calculating murdering machine willing to use his own mother as a cheap way for his star minotaur to exercise blocking. This concept fits just as well for a min/maxing Blackbox coach as a cherrypicking Ranked coach.
Did you know?
A majority of the Fumbbl Coaches
look upon a Blood Bowl as an
opportunity to cause as much
mayhem and destruction as possible.
A sizeable minority do however believe
that gaining an unfair advantage in order
to actually win a bloodbowl game should
be considered more important. This have
caused much angry debate. Both sides do
however agree that something should be
done about the small minority of
peaceful coaches that play to write "fluff",
be social and spoil the fun for everyone else. |
qftw  |
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Timlagor
Joined: Feb 13, 2009
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Jan 31, 2011 - 22:00 |
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| MadTias wrote: | | Meh. It's just more fun to beat the "min/max" team with your "fluffy" team. Coaching (and dice) has been known to have some small effect on the outcome. Just think of it as an extra challenge. |
I find myself wondering how a bunch of zombies woudl fare... |
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Purplegoo
Joined: Mar 23, 2006
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Jan 31, 2011 - 22:04 |
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I wrote a long old post, then decided Calthor had said it all anyway. The idea that Blackbox is ‘this’ or ‘that‘, ‘all about x’ or ‘strongly linked to y’ is silly really, it's [R] with pairing system and that‘s it, that's the total deal of the division. I often find myself in disagreement with 100% of anything Painstate contributes (and often his contribution is large!), and in this case, I think he’s just seeing things that aren’t there, assuming the way he looks at things is ‘the way’. Bonkers. Although, I’m only at 99% tonight, he seems to indicate most coaches couldn’t care less about ‘Major’ competitions, which I’m pleasantly surprised I agree upon!
No-one is suggesting any of this min/maxing is ‘wrong’ per se anyway; just in the same way it’s incorrect to say it’s ‘right’ or encouraged. It’s just a thing that’s happening due to the environment that the division cultivates and it’s being discussed. Fair enough, in my view. Do I like it? No. But I wouldn’t house rule it. Perhaps that’s because I’m generally a [R] fellow and I won't have to deal with it much longer.
And MadTias, eh? It won’t take you five minutes to find a TV efficient / minmaxed Necro team with bonkers cash in the bank. I can think of at least three off the top of my head, and I don’t do much searching! It’s not hard to come up with 3-4 super-star Necro players at TV1400 or so, fire everything else that isn’t a rookie Zombie, and play that way. It would raise your chances of winning games selected upon even TV with a bash heavy division significantly. Although; that increase probably wouldn't be much more than just running Elves and laughing at the quantity of Claw in the division, like a few currently are. That's probably the smarter, better coaching way of making the most of the division frankly, it's just few people notice! |
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Mr_Foulscumm
Joined: Mar 05, 2005
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| Posted:
Jan 31, 2011 - 22:25 |
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| PainState wrote: | and here they are storming out of the Northern Wastes....ready to destroy, kill, plunder, foul and maim every single pixel in the Box.
Foulscumms Villany
Note at the last minute I decided to not purchase a 7 FF and get an extra reroll...kept the 70,000gc for our coming out party and lower that TV just a little more to rub some salt in...3RR should be enough to start out with. |
Yes this is the reason I made this thread!  |
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Frankenstein
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Jan 31, 2011 - 22:43 |
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Anyway, Divide and Devour is the second-richest team on FUMBBL with like 1440k cash while I'm writing these lines.
Merely a matter of time when the still leading Anarchists (2120k) will lose their pole position... |
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SillySod
Joined: Oct 10, 2006
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Jan 31, 2011 - 22:59 |
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Damn you guys are rookies
Especially Mr_Purplescumm. In all my years of rules abuse never have I come across such a lackluster attempt at controversy 
Chaos Pact simply arent the terror you make them out to be (and nor are necros). The team you put forward have claw/MB and a surehands blodge ball carrier but very little else - there is not alot of block or guard and the team completely lacks wrestle, tackle, and frenzy. Good luck taking on agility teams or hyper-strength bashers. What makes it worse is that TV1260 isnt actually that small compared to other abuse teams (TV1400+ is HUGE). Sure these guys will beat on poorly designed teams and you will win some games via cas but it isnt a Pact specific issue.
Example teams:
| Code: | Humans (TV 1200)
Ogre (guard) - 160k
4 Blitzers (guard, guard, guard, guard) - 440k
Thrower (block, leader) - 110k
Catcher - 70k
5 Linemen (wrestle) - 270k
2 ReRolls - 100k
Apothecary - 50k |
A very powerful team that specialises in ball control but which will probably bash most opposition into smitherines anyway. I've played this particular varient an awful lot and it still runs pretty well even when its in a bad patch. You can take away most of the tools and still have a good team and you can afford to have a certain amount of bloat and extra skills before the teams performance takes too much of a knock. The team becomes "fair" against a normal team at about TV1600.
Obviously you have to account for fan factor when you work out the actual TV but bear in mind that you can afford to lose at least one reroll (two RRs is plenty) and probably the apothecary too.
| Code: | Orcs (TV1400)
Troll (guard) - 130k
4 Black Orcs (block/guard, block/guard, block/guard, block/guard) - 480k
4 Blitzers (tackle/mighty blow, frenzy, guard, guard) - 420k
1 Thrower (block, leader) - 110k
1 Lineorc - 50k
1 Goblin - 40k
2 ReRolls - 120k
Apothecary - 50k |
Again, this team could afford to lose plenty of baggage (cut the trollanyone?) but I'm just trying to give you an idea of whats possible. Notice that I have restricted myself from adding any doubles to either roster.
Personally I prefer the human setup but I'm sure there are plenty of people out there who will happily slobber all over this particular setup. I wouldnt enjoy building and maintaining the black orcs and I find that orcs lack the speed to deal with unusual threats or fast shifts in momentum. I sure as hell wouldnt want to face it though
This is the tip of the iceberg. Other teams can pull similar stunts: skaven and amazons should probably be top of the list if you are looking for rosters to abuse. Underworld are worth a look if you fancy having a win-oriented low TV claw team.
#RANT#
I warned you guys about this stuff ages ago. Did you listen? No, apparently "no one will be that lame" and "those teams arent very good anyway". This was always going to happen if TV is used to match teams in the box. Its kind of sad to watch, like a blind man slowly walking towards a cliff - ineviatable but unnecessary.
A system doesnt have to be vulnerable to people being people.
/#RANT# |
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Putting the "eh?" back into Sexeh.
"There are those to whom knowledge is a shield. There are those to whom it is a weapon. Neither view is balanced." |
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Baki
Joined: Nov 03, 2008
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Jan 31, 2011 - 23:49 |
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I am having fun tv optimizing my teams and i do not get what should be wrong with it. This is no RPG or something. People are having fun to try their best to win matches. There is a reason why the weakest races are also the least popular ones.
i think most ppl do it in the box - some to a greater extent, some to a smaller extent. I am someone who thinks a lot about the tv.. get over it..
About Chaos Pact Teams without Big Guys: After playing a few matches with this team i think that this approach is pretty weak for the first few matches. You can bring a far better team to the pitch with other races. Around 1300 they start to get stronger because then you may be able to make use of str and mutation access.
Overall i do not think this approach is more overpowered than other races like dwarfs or amazons at low tv or elfes or chaos at high tv. |
Last edited by Baki on %b %31, %2011 - %23:%Jan; edited 1 time in total |
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BooAhl
Joined: Sep 02, 2004
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Jan 31, 2011 - 23:56 |
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| Frankenstein wrote: | Anyway, Divide and Devour is the second-richest team on FUMBBL with like 1440k cash while I'm writing these lines.
Merely a matter of time when the still leading Anarchists (2120k) will lose their pole position... |
So? Is this a problem? |
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Gnomes are trash
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