| Poll |
| Any change for you? |
| Nah |
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15% |
[ 17 ] |
| Maybe with some races |
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26% |
[ 28 ] |
| Totally! |
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37% |
[ 40 ] |
| Is that a pie I see before me? |
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15% |
[ 17 ] |
| Depends, is Macavity the same? |
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4% |
[ 5 ] |
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| Total Votes : 107 |
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Purplegoo
Joined: Mar 23, 2006
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 Posted:
Feb 05, 2011 - 22:55 |
 
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Hello, hello. As the three weeks of official LRB6 play have progressed, one of the most interesting, unanswered questions we seem to have is what the general focus of team building and progression will be in the longer term. There have already been a few threads around if taking +Stats are worth it, around maximisation of the TV formula, use of Journeymen, etc, and I think a lot of these ideas come under this management banner, and how this has changed between LRB4 and 6. Many cultural things about the game haven't changed, kill teams still kill (albeit via slightly different mechanisms), Elves still run, the sequence of turns remains the same (infact, the change in rules has changed almost nothing on the field of play significantly at all), but there does seem, in these early days, to have been a culture shift in terms of building a team.
Those of you that have played in TT leagues will doubtless have seen little difference over LRBs 4-6, since over 8, 10, even 20 games, team building is sort of a moot point, you have your team, stuff skills, and over such a short sprint, I guess not much thought is given to team development, perhaps bar sacking injuries and loading up on positionals. So this sort of question over an infinite league will be new to us all?
In LRB4 in our open divisions, things were (in widely general terms) pretty simple. You had three main stages of a team;
1. The start. Max out on FF, get Linemen into the starting eleven. Get hold of RRs.
2. The middle. Spread out TR weight SPPs across players evenly, get an efficient team via everyone having 1-3 skills, not relying on 2-3 superstars. Add expensive positionals, allow to gradually catchup. Focus on a cohesive ‘team’.
3. The end. Your careful planning and SPP distribution has lead to a high TR team. This high TR is desirable as, not only is this where the high TR Cups are contested (if this is your thing), but also there is an undercurrent of BB being not just about what you do on the pitch, but about team building and long term fluff and history.
There was a somewhat linear, organic progression from 1-3. OK, so you probably got some knocks along the way, some setbacks, but you eventually ended at 3, got bashed up, and then reorganised for another run at it. There was little to none (unless you were an Undead SMACK farmer) of this careful TR range management, sacking healthy players (unless they’d gotten obviously too big for their boots and seemed to be an anchor), artificially stifling of the natural growth of a team.
In LRB6 so far, some things seem to have shifted.
1. The start. FF is no longer a concern (although, until you’ve been on the end of a +2 Pitch Invasion, you’ve not experienced hell!), so more positionals begin life in the starting 11. Naturally, SPP gravitate to these guys.
2. The middle. Here, there are many examples of teams relying on 2 or 3 megastars. Whether the team is a 3 killer positional, rest rookie Zombie Necro team, or a 3 great Gutter Runner and a bunch of Journeymen Linerat Skaven team, teams begin to lean more on star names to get the job done. I have Vampire and Slann teams myself that are, to one degree or another, reliant on one or a small group of players to get a result, and because of the lack of an SPP anchor (and because I can’t see a reason not to in these rules), to a certain extent I’m allowing it to happen without being rigorous about diligently spreading SPP. Is this a good thing? I mean, the TV we’re talking in these examples is mid-range, so long as I don’t let it get too out of hand as we get up to the top end, is this a massive hinderance?
There are sides that probably don’t benefit from this approach. Bashers like Orcs or Dwarves probably benefit heavily still from a blanket of skills in the middle rather than a couple of super Longbeards. Is that true? Probably true of most Elves too - Linemen have parts to play there.
More interestingly, there are teams about that seem for one reason or another to want to stay in the middle. Be it because they are exploiting / maximising the TV formula to get themselves easier games from the scheduler, or just because they think the TV they’re at is optimal. I saw a TV1800 ish 12 man Woodie team missing a Catcher with 300k banked the other day, perfectly happy with life. Struck me as really very odd, but perhaps the coach thought his team was unbeatable at that position, but 9 or 18TV further on he’d be in more trouble. I must confess, I'dve been at at least 13 men with another Catcher. I did note his skills were well spread.
3. The end. There haven’t been many sides in the new rules that have got to ‘the end’ yet with all games played in the new rules. Some of it is time, but not all of it. I wonder why that is. Is it because the lack of a high TV cup to aim at? Is it because coaches are carefully considering where they deem their team most competitive? Is it a bloodier game, despite all of these massive bank balances, and staying in the middle is forced rather than desired? Is this organic growth and desirable team building going out of BB with the new rules, is it very much a win in the middle or bust scenario? Personally, I was always a win or bust coach, regardless of division, but still, I never put the brakes on a team’s natural development even if I thought there was a small inefficiency issue. I haven’t tried yet in LRB6, and I don’t intend to – but is the box bringing out the cut-throat nature of some coaches? Are they just getting wins, treading water until [R] is back and they build their real 'team' teams?
So – what about you, is the new ruleset going to alter your team building? How and why? Does it vary by race? Is high TV your goal, or is it incidental? I am interested to find out if FUMBBL is to become the playground of the TV manager, the all Marauder Pact team, the billion gold bank balance, or whether this team building aspect to the game (which I have to admit, I thought the majority inherently enjoyed and saw as part of the open online experience) will endure. I'm genuinely interested to see if people have shifted considerably, and why. |
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Chewie
Joined: Dec 13, 2006
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| Posted:
Feb 05, 2011 - 23:04 |
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I've not changed anything since i've been back.
I play for the lols... the rest will either take care of itself or it won't. Still at low TV though. |
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RC
Joined: Sep 22, 2005
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| Posted:
Feb 05, 2011 - 23:09 |
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I think why we just see bashers at the top is because,,, we just see bashers at the top.
Wait a while longer and we will get more diverse teams above tv2100. Just now its almost just Vicius that has taken a non- traditional team team up there.
Its easy to get to tv 2000 but if you got there by buying coaches and having your positional players just skilled at 31 spp and the rest at 16 to 6 you are gonna go like a yo- yo up and down in tv since the leg bashers will eat you up for breakfast.
What I noticed after playing beta was that the team manages it when you have played something like 34-40 games and have a few superstars to rely on.
So.. just wait .. most people havent played enough games with their new blackbox teams yet to get up there. The claw, mb, po dudes skill faster than the rest  |
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Last edited by RC on %b %05, %2011 - %23:%Feb; edited 1 time in total |
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RandomOracle
Joined: Jan 11, 2004
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| Posted:
Feb 05, 2011 - 23:10 |
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I'd say a big part of it is major tournaments. Reaching a high TV isn't a goal in and of itself, but major tournaments give a big incentive for many people to build up their teams. In addition, pretty much all the most famous teams have been at high team ratings at some point, and usually participated in the major tournaments. However, this is true of ranked. It could be that the Box-only major tournaments don't have the same prestige that the ones in Ranked do. Likewise, maybe it's harder to make a team famous in the Box, partly because the more famous teams play in Ranked, and partly because the majors with history are in Ranked. In addition, it's possible that building a team up to higher team value makes it less likely for you to get games with the team.
In any case, I don't see a problem with trying to keep your team at a certain TV level. Although some races do well at high TVs (orcs, chaos, elves, etc.), others have their sweet-spot earlier. Moreover, some coaches just like playing at lower TVs, where the players have fewer skills available. As for myself, I prefer high-TV play, and because I typically play with the cookie-cutter races that do well at high TVs (orcs, chaos, elves), I would like to build up my teams in the Box. |
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Macavity
Joined: Nov 23, 2004
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| Posted:
Feb 05, 2011 - 23:21 |
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No, I'm not the same. Personally, I'm thrilled with the new diversity and personality of teams. Once Goblins are out, I will be building them to win all tournaments, though! Other than that, I expect to screw up almost as much as when I started here, in terms of team building. I still struggle to wrap my mind around having wrestle on more than a couple players on any team.... |
_________________
When I became a man I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up. -C.S. Lewis |
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Purplegoo
Joined: Mar 23, 2006
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Feb 05, 2011 - 23:34 |
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RO, Id be surprised if it were so Major led. What percentage of coaches cared? As one that didn't, and one that saw extreme high TR as a bit rule bending and not as interesting / skillful as the middle to mid high bit, I still saw organic team building as far as it went part of the online game with whatever race. I always got the feeling that wasn't unusual? |
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koadah
Joined: Mar 30, 2005
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| Posted:
Feb 05, 2011 - 23:34 |
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If you are matching by TV then most teams don't really gain by going to very high TV. As you say maybe a Major on the horizon might change that. Even then, Inducements make up part of that difference.
Keeping TV down means that you can hoard cash before being hit by spiraling expenses.
If you look at the skills available to e.g. chaos most teams won't match up that well with them at higher TV. Keeping TV down avoids the worst of them and gives you inducements when you can't avoid them.
Come the Majors we'll see how the 'sweet spot' hugging teams do against the monsters.
4-6 stars + the rest rookies/journeymen is popular though risky.
My chaos team seems stuck at between 1700-1800. I've just bought a 14th player against the conventional wisdom of 13 as it seems very rare that everyone is fit.
It seems that every other game has 10+ cas. I could have boosted my TV by hiring a minotaur but someone would just kill him. 
I haven't spent a single gold piece on FF yet. |
_________________
O[L]C 2016 Swiss! - April ---- All Star Bowl - Teams of Stars - 2 more teams needed |
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Rijssiej
Joined: Jan 04, 2005
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| Posted:
Feb 05, 2011 - 23:36 |
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For me it was a bit disappointing to see that the team building has changed so much in CRP. In LRB4 spreading SPP around was a good strategy as you could get much more skills for your TR, the planning of where your SPP go and possibly taking in game risks to get the SPP to the right player added a whole layer of strategy to the game. With CRP it is mostly good to get more skills to players that already have skills, as long as the skills complement eachother. For bashers e.g. it is more usefull to have a block, MB, Claw, PO, Tackle player than it is to have 5 players with each one of those skills, the same goes for blodge, SS, sure hands, fend runners and sure hands, pass, accurate, safe throw, strong arm passers. The main disadvantage of having all the skills on a couple of mega stars is that your team loses a lot when one of them is taken off the field and there might not always be skills to pick that complement their strength but I still expect much more unbalanced SPP distribution in teams than what we are used to in LRB4. |
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RandomOracle
Joined: Jan 11, 2004
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Feb 05, 2011 - 23:41 |
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| Purplegoo wrote: | | RO, Id be surprised if it were so Major led. What percentage of coaches cared? As one that didn't, and one that saw extreme high TR as a bit rule bending and not as interesting / skillful as the middle to mid high bit, I still saw organic team building as far as it went part of the online game with whatever race. I always got the feeling that wasn't unusual? |
It could be. I guess one reason for the alleged change is that now it's easier to keep your team at the TV level you want them to. Previously, SPPs always increased your team rating, which obviously meant that spreading out the SPPs resulted in more skills for your team with the same TR cost. Now, you can keep on relying on the same star players for killing and scoring, without significantly increasing the TV of your team and/or making your team less competitive. |
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zakatan
Joined: May 17, 2008
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| Posted:
Feb 06, 2011 - 00:00 |
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I like to keep my High Elves in the 1500~1750 range, because there is a nice diversity of opponents in this area and I find them more competitive here. And I had never had so much money in an elf team. I stay at 12~13 payers and have enough to replace casualties. I'm not even worried if they die anymore... maybe it's also that i'm getting old and heartless. |
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PorkSol
Joined: Jan 10, 2008
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| Posted:
Feb 06, 2011 - 00:23 |
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As a new/bad coach I'm restarting my teams when they get too high in TV because
a) I get matched up with new coaches like myself more often at high TV
b) I'm playing Orcs and during Eastern U.S. prime time the 200+ TV ranges seem to be mostly chaos slayer team run by highly experienced coaches.
Also this may be a function of my low skill but as Orcs I still think a star blitzer with an AG boost will help me win much more than spending the same team value getting mighty blow, guard or positioning skills on a few more random schmoes. Block on the black orcs is a huge benefit, and the first mighty blow blitzer is nice, but after that, a little extra tackle, mighty blow, sidestep, etc just seems marginal compared to the playmaking ability of a guy with an AG boost.
And a truly blessed player like Crud Bonemeal just makes everything a lot easier. For example by putting a tackle zone on the ball for like 5 turns despite two mummies trying to dislodge him, or just handling the ball and dodging easily.
You can't rely on AG3 at all, so at least the 1st AG4 on the team seems to be worth far more than the cost in team value.
I'm not sure if this opinion will change as my skills improve, but the rules changes do seem to have made lopsided development a much more viable option. |
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koadah
Joined: Mar 30, 2005
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| Posted:
Feb 06, 2011 - 00:46 |
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What might keep things a little honest is if every now and then (maybe 1 in 4 or 5) teams over say 1400 were matched totally randomly.
Though I suppose them nasty chaos would love that.
@PorkSol sure your +AG guy is great but you have to roll 11 to get him. If your games are difficult he will probably score a lot and skill up quickly anyway.
Of course that the MB/claw/PO/tackle guy has eyes only for Crud Bonemeal.
When he's gone you'd better have a plan B. |
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O[L]C 2016 Swiss! - April ---- All Star Bowl - Teams of Stars - 2 more teams needed |
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uzkulak
Joined: Mar 30, 2004
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| Posted:
Feb 06, 2011 - 01:05 |
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I still want to get about three skills on all my players. After that I find Im often not giving them anything thats especially useful unless they roll doubles. |
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Rabe
Joined: Jun 06, 2009
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| Posted:
Feb 06, 2011 - 01:25 |
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I still focus on building teams after weird themes and usually can't get enough skills on any player, so I'm still happily distributing SPP if possible.
But in case I ever manage to get a legendary player or two, I'll be really glad about the fact that they can get as much SPP as they like from that point on without being punished. The new rules might even speed up the process of leveling superior players - though I don't think I'll ever have a team only focused on a few stars surrounded by linemen.
I'm quite good in team building and managing - if it means sticking to a stupid idea, never taking into account the team's competitiveness.  |
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Macavity
Joined: Nov 23, 2004
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| Posted:
Feb 06, 2011 - 04:08 |
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