Muusu
Joined: Jan 21, 2008
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Feb 05, 2010 - 21:35 |
 
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Hello, I have been playing here on and off for just over 2 years now and I have started wondering, in terms of TR/TS, what makes an even match?
Obviously the easy answer would be teams with equal TR/TS should be a fairly even match. But what if you can't find an opponent with a relatively similar score?
My question to all you coaches with FAR more experience than I is, if I have a team with a split TR/TS, say 130/150 (I have noticed that 20 to 30 point spreads are not uncommon, and I currently have 3 or 4 teams with one) and there are currently no opponents with the same score available should I be, looking for an opponent with a TR of 130, regardless of TS? or a team with a TS of 150 regardless of TR? or someone with a reverse score of 150/130? or none of the above?
Obviously 'even' is not perfectly predictable in BloodBowl as coaching ability, knowledge of ones own team vs. opposing races, and the blessing of the Dice Gods themselves all play major factors. But if all things other than TR/TS are considered equal, what makes for a good, even, fight to the death? |
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Malmir
Joined: May 20, 2008
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Feb 05, 2010 - 21:37 |
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ts is far more important than tr. Handicaps allow for tr whereas ts is a rough guide to how strong the team is. |
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Chewie
Joined: Dec 13, 2006
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Feb 05, 2010 - 21:42 |
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Try to go for +/- 10 TS and TR |
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snalin
Joined: Sep 10, 2009
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Feb 05, 2010 - 21:45 |
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I'd go for ts, but try to stay away from too many handicaps. You can get handicaps when playing a better or as good team as your opponent - an example is fresh dwarves or wood elves (100tr) against skilled vampires, ogres (120+ tr) and other low skill teams. The dwarves will probably bash apart the other team with little difficulty, and the elves will run away from - and score against - most other teams. I think a better way of thinking is to look at the other team's rooster, and figure out for yourself if this will be an even match or not. |
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Mightypeon
Joined: Jan 13, 2009
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Feb 05, 2010 - 21:54 |
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In General, TS attempts to define strength in an aboslute matter. However, this is faulty in it self, since the ingedrient of the roster will affect you in a different way depending on what you are playing yourself.
F.e. if I am playing Lizards, several mobile players with Block Tackle and Mighty Blow concern me much more than someone who plays Dorfs.
If I play Elfs, I may put less emphasis on the number of opposing Guards than I would with Orcs or Chaos.
The list can be continued a lot. |
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bxnyc
Joined: Jun 23, 2009
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Feb 05, 2010 - 22:15 |
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Well, this certainly is an interesting topic.
I'd start with anyone who accepts an open game in ranked considers the game a "fair match up" otherwise it would be declined. But, in regards to asking/looking for fair matches it seems most coaches will stick within their own play type, bashers/elfball. a 240/230 elf team vs a 240/230 highly mutated chaos team, may be considered unfair for the elves even though they will more likely pull the win in terms of td's. in the several months since ive been on fumbbl, i notice the skill set and armor values are more important to the coaches deciding if its a fair match up.
a team loaded with 6DP will be considered unfair tr/ts being roughly equeal
tackle vs dodge ex. zon v dwarf would be considered unfair for zons?
av9 team loaded with mb/rsc/claw vs av 7 teams would be considered unfair from the av7 coach perspective.
some of the mentality for "fair" in open play is, if i stand toe to toe with the other team, will i get bashed into the ground.
this by no means is the mentality of every coach or even the best way to decide which games to play
a notable example is zombie69 who loves to use his elf teams vs khem |
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Juff
Joined: May 24, 2006
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Feb 05, 2010 - 22:33 |
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My personal viewpoint on a 'fair' match; with average dice, could I win this with either team?
Obviously this is based on both coaches' primary concern being the win. Often you will see teams looking to play matches where they may not be a favourite to win, but they're unlikely to suffer heavy CAS. See:AV9 teams looking to play elves. In this case, when accepting with elves (for example) while you may reckon the elves to have as high as 2/1 shot at winning, the 'underdog' coach is happy to take that, and sees it as 'fair' from their own viewpoint. |
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Zombie69
Joined: Jul 02, 2007
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Feb 05, 2010 - 23:26 |
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The best way to find out if it's a fair game is to look at the two rosters. A quick glance should be enough for an experienced coach to give proper judgement. If you lack the experience to be able to make such a judgement call, you could do what the box does : compare the two TS scores, counting each handicap as being worth 5 TS. This is far from a good way of determining fair games imo, but without enough experience to make judgement calls, it's the best thing you've got. |
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svemole
Joined: Feb 09, 2006
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Feb 06, 2010 - 00:14 |
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| Quote: |
The best way to find out if it's a fair game is to look at the two rosters. A quick glance should be enough for an experienced coach to give proper judgement. If you lack the experience to be able to make such a judgement call, you could do what the box does : compare the two TS scores, counting each handicap as being worth 5 TS. This is far from a good way of determining fair games imo, but without enough experience to make judgement calls, it's the best thing you've got.
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+1 |
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Kinks
Joined: Feb 28, 2007
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Sep 06, 2010 - 15:31 |
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It all depends on the actual teams themselves.
The TR/TS scores are a good guide, but don't take into account everything. Generally If I'm playing within 10 TS and I feel the teams are even
There are other things I take into consideration though:
- Are you giving away handicaps when you have 11 or less players (potentialy risking having even less players).
- Number of players in the team generally. Equal TS/TR team of 5 players against ones of 11 players are rarely fair.
- Tackle / Blodge, Are you playing against 11 blodging Zons with only 1 tackler?
- Wasted skills, such as Tackle vs 0 Dodge or Dauntless against Elves/Dwarves, etc. These will all count in your team strength, but not actually help out your team at all.
- The races. Certain races are clearly better suited vs some races than others.
- The opponents CR, if I'm playing against a particularly low CR coach I will often allow them a higher TS or a free handi just to make the game more competitive (that's my personal choice - not advice).
There's other factors, suppose it comes with experience, but those should help 
PS. Every now and again (if I know the opponent isn't a deliberate pick) I will just say "oh well, what the hell!" and play a game I would normally refuse (just to remind myself why I should refuse such matches!). |
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krytie
Joined: Aug 16, 2007
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Sep 06, 2010 - 15:46 |
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Most of the basics of a fair game are already posted above. When it comes to making or judging a fair offer of a game, I think i saw JanMattys once say:
A fair offer is one which would still be accepted if the teams were reversed.
This of course requires a certain amount of judgement/experience using the advice above from Zombie69 and others. The concise answer from Chewie is the idealised case which should be taken whenever it is available. |
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koadah
Joined: Mar 30, 2005
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Sep 06, 2010 - 15:53 |
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polardragon
Joined: May 07, 2011
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Aug 18, 2011 - 21:32 |
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BB does make it easy to find a game.
I haven't tried Ranked yet, all the talk of cherry picking and what is 'fair' has been a little off-putting. Kind of like a head game before the actual game when all I want to do is play.
Is this true or just urban legend? |
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RandomOracle
Joined: Jan 11, 2004
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Aug 18, 2011 - 21:45 |
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| polardragon wrote: | BB does make it easy to find a game.
I haven't tried Ranked yet, all the talk of cherry picking and what is 'fair' has been a little off-putting. Kind of like a head game before the actual game when all I want to do is play.
Is this true or just urban legend? |
That was my experience, at least to some extent, when I played in Ranked. Sometimes trying to cajole people into playing you could be a game in itself, and I tired of it quickly. However, I haven't played in Ranked lately, so it's possible the situation has changed. |
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PainState
Joined: Apr 04, 2007
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Aug 18, 2011 - 22:05 |
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Well my 2cents on this subject.
Finding matches on GF are very easy if you just want to play a match.
Here are my guidelines
#1) there are teams in your TV range, sometimes that is not a given
#2) Dont worry about cherry picking and all that other stuff.
#3) Actually click on the other coaches name and offer a challenge...dont sit around like a dead fish and wait for others to challenge you
#4) Embrace the spirit of the Box in ranked and take on all comers.
#5) Understand that Ranked matches offer choice...so If you want to make your monster CLPOMB nurgle team you will have to hang out on GF and wait for a similar basher or very confindent elf team to come along and play you...Obviously the box is more suited to certain types of teams. IE faster to get a match. Just like Box your monster CLPOMB team or basher type will probally have to linger on the GF be matched up with a similar killer but with out the wait. |
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