Frankenstein
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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 Posted:
Mar 30, 2003 - 17:41 |
 
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Cute, build a Woodie-Team and try to reach TR 200 and 11 players. And include matches against basher-teams, of course. With all due respect, but it would appear to me that you do not really know what you're talking about. Your points about SPP-development and player-losses simply are not true. |
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Schloesser-Alt
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Mar 31, 2003 - 10:50 |
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hi everyone,
i play woodies and i foul if it´s necessary. it´s in some way the only way for me to deal with basher teams like undead. Fouling is part of the game and i involve it in my tactic to get an advantage on my opponent.
what i don´t like either way is doing fouls on the last turn when all is clear only to hurt and maybe destroy the opponent´s team. i hate it in fact and would never do it myself.
if i foul in a match my opponent has the right to foul me too and vice versa. that´s the game.
@Mirascael: your right with your statement above. about a few minutes ago i trashed my Schloesser-Alt Bears Woody Team. They were above 200 and got destroyed in only 3 games. but i started a new woody team cause i like to play them. |
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-- Please leave the pitch in the same way you would like to enter it! -- |
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Cute
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Mar 31, 2003 - 12:21 |
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You might say i'm not a veteran in playing blodbowl, but i do know that elfs are better at getting ssp's from personal exsperience, an elfteam die more and earn more ssp's, the money is different issue, i can see that an elf team might lag money more then basher teams, that is why i don't know why people play teams that have so low ff... i see several teams that start with 1-4 ff and that is hard to recover.
But one thing i know is that in a normal game elfs DO get more ssp's then a basher team, couse they throw and score more depending on luck and skills of coach  so to say i don't know anything is just a lame way to excuse yourself... (i think i know what i need to know about gaining ssp's) |
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BadMrMojo
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Mar 31, 2003 - 19:22 |
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Cat fight!
Really, kids. Play nice. I don't think anyone's going to sway opinions by slinging insults back and forth. It seems pretty clear that there are two camps here. Thankfully we have an open league. You know, that whole league format where you play against who you want to play...
If you have a problem with a coach who doesn't bother playing the ball, then don't play them in the future. There are plenty of people around who you can play and some of them are likely to play your kind of game.
I like playing touchball, personally. It's actually pretty fun to play it against a crusher team occasionally and either skate by with these huge fantastic plays or go down in flames.
Fouling is a part of the game. The whole idea of a game is that there are rules that you follow. It's part of the rules. That said, I hardly ever foul, even when I get the ref. (Stunties may be an exception, just because it's fun to think of them swarming the downed troll, but even then, hardly ever.) I don't like permanently injuring players just for a sense of personal satisfaction. On a few rare incidences, I may even foul a player to keep him down for the sake of a play, Norse Blitzers and Witch Elves's in particular can be problematic. Sure, I hope for a BH, or even a stunned, if I just need them out of the way for a single turn.
Do I hold a grudge against people who foul for no reason other than because it looks like fun? Sure, for a minute or two. Then I figure, 'It's not like they cheated, and by playing this game, I've accepted that part of the rules.' It's the same thing with PO RSC minotaurs. Then I try to memorize their handle to avoid them in the future. It's an open division and I can do that. That's part of the rules too. |
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Ta-Ouch! of BloodBowl
Condensed Guide for Newbies |
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AsperonThorn
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Mar 31, 2003 - 19:36 |
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While I apreciate the sentiments, Cute, this debate has already been done to death in both the Sportsmanship Thread and the Challenge System Thread. It appears that everyone is very partison on this issue and it has broken into two camps.
They are:
The "my Elven teams need only play teams that have limited tackle and will not foul, so I can score with impunity" camp.
and on the other side
The "My bashy teams should only have to pick on weak elven teams, so I can hurt and not be hurt" camp.
Neither are more correct than the other, and both are equally broken. It says nothing of a coach that can wrack up 8 points a game against a team that forgot to put any tackle in thier roster, or that plays against another elf team. It also says nothing about a RSC, Claw, PO, MB chaos team that has carved through 6 wood elf teams in a row leaving 80 CAS in its wake.
While I am willing to listen to Mirascael about IGMEOY and DP being broken, I have yet to see enough numbers to prove it. I believe it looks very lopsided for an elf team, after they have lost a catcher and a Wardancer in the same game (totalling over 200k, without skills) sometimes that is the way the dice roll.
Christer has put together a very nice site, for fun, on his free time, including a neat ranking system so that we can all see how we are doing against one another. Unfortunately, without challenges I think that the ranking system can only be a lie. I have seen too many coaches searching for that wounded High TR team to shoot thier ranking up. And I have seen too many of those same coaches refuse to "play down" against teams that were healthy.
On the flip side, without a Handicap table, Challenges would also be broken, they too, would prove nothing. But if you are looking for games with fouls, beatings, and mixed races. You should try The A.N.A.R.C.H.I.S.T. Group. Everyone there, is willing to play anyone, just about anytime. Not only with thier entered teams, but with the same mentality, with just about all of thier teams (grossly differentiated TR excluded.)
What I do STRONGLY suggest, is that instead of complaining against people that foul, or complaining that poncy teams won't play you, is to come up with some sort of reason to make it reasonable. A better ranking system, experimental IGMEOY rules, Challenge Conferences, where ranking is weighted heavier, whatever. At the same time, leave it a friendly atmosphere, in which people that show up for the occasional match don't feel pressured.
The most important thing, though, is digging up this foul debate on, yet, another thread, isn't helping anything.
Asperon Thorn
[edit]Damn, BadmrMojo beat me again. Dont your have work to do or somthing  [/edit] |
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Mnemon
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
Mar 31, 2003 - 20:10 |
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Frankenstein
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Mar 31, 2003 - 20:39 |
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| Cute wrote: | You might say i'm not a veteran in playing blodbowl, but i do know that elfs are better at getting ssp's from personal exsperience, an elfteam die more and earn more ssp's, the money is different issue, i can see that an elf team might lag money more then basher teams, that is why i don't know why people play teams that have so low ff... i see several teams that start with 1-4 ff and that is hard to recover.
But one thing i know is that in a normal game elfs DO get more ssp's then a basher team, couse they throw and score more depending on luck and skills of coach so to say i don't know anything is just a lame way to excuse yourself... (i think i know what i need to know about gaining ssp's) |
Anyhow, as far as my experience is concerned, you cannot have tried Woodies so far. Else you wouldn't have made that SPP-statement.
Furthermore, my Woodies ALWAYS start with 8 or 9 FF.
And even if you should score more SPPs than a basher-team (which actually doesn't happen very often), you still lose much more SPPs due to kills/forced retirements. 
That said, I'd suggest you create a Woodie-Team and try to get it to TR 200. And at least every second match has to be against a basher-team of similar rating. Then you'll see what I meant by "not knowing what you are talking about". I merely meant, that you never have played Woodies in a competitive environment like this because of your statement. By no means was it meant offensive. 
By the way: This thread was initiated by a basher. Not Woodies were whining - bashers were whining and complaining that some coaches denied them a match. |
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Furies
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Mar 31, 2003 - 21:52 |
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Hey all,
I'm pretty new on the block and as such probley not the most informed. However my two cents is that even though I am amazons which other then their dodge and block skills are still runty humans. They die easy end of story. HOwever this doesn't bother me. Boohoo if one o them dies, this is -BLOODbowl- not football. Yeah it is nice to score points, but if it requires you to do some dirty tricks all the better. If you don't like it join a normal football league. I head hunt every one, orges kroxigors? I'll tackle them all and cry for more. I don't care if my guy dies and I expect my opponents not to either. It's the name of the game , thats why we get money. If there is someone you don't want to die, becareful with him and try to keep him out of harms way.
Fouling is in the rules and a good way of winning. Use it to your advantage or go play football |
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Frankenstein
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Mar 31, 2003 - 23:16 |
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I was just playing against against lizzies (TR 200) with TR 224 Woodies (My strength was about 0-10 points higher).
Half 1: 2 Kills (89 and 86 SPP, the next in my team has 61 and then 30), 1 MNG, 1 BH. 2 games ago against lizzies there were two straight consecutive block-kills (and 2 niggles, of course) as well. If I was forced to accept challenges Iwouldn't bother playing BB at all.
Half 2: 2 more NIs
So that means that I'll have 5 players less next match, cannot buy a new one (60k cash) and FF dropped, of course, I've won 5-1.
He had no DPs, didn't indulge in unnecessary violence (committed not even one foul) and I played very protectively (always dodging out). Lizzies are rather harmless in comparison to other teams, Undead often manage 8 Fatalities in a half (1 Blitz is sufficient) - also without fouling.
Have a look at this:
http://fumbbl.com/FUMBBL.php?page=team&op=pastplayers&team_id=4941
And this is my team page:
http://fumbbl.com/FUMBBL.php?page=team&op=view&team_id=4941
Here my stats:
Games Played: 58 (31/6/21) | TD Diff: 22 (141 - 119) | Cas Diff: -78 (31/18/12 - 62/48/29)
Sorry cute, but I really think that you actually have not the slightest idea what you are talking about, still, this is not meant offensive at all. Just give Woodies a try and you will see what kind of experience you're so dearly missing.
And as far as SPP are concerned:
Woodies: 5 TD, 1 casuality (he blocked my tree and got a mng), 1 completion, 1MVP: 23 SPP (20 actually 3 SPP went to the graveyard)
Lizzies: 1 TD, 6 CAS, 1 MVP: 20 SPP (no one died, no one injured)
Seems fairly balanced to me. And if you consider that I've just lost 180 SPP in players and got 2 new nigglers I cannot see your point at all. Your SPP-claim is absolutely lame, sorry again dude.  |
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Darkwolf
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Apr 01, 2003 - 01:30 |
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I have touched upon this in the Sportsmanship Thread that others directed you to Cute and since you are daft or cannot read I will summarize my argument.
-If you foul as a tactic to win, you are a poor coach.
-If you need to foul to take out a teams best player (s), then you are a poor coach.
- If you need to foul in order to score TD's versus 'skill' or 'agile' teams, you are a poor coach.
- Cute, I have an undead team. They have 9 more wins than losses. I have beaten the #1 coach with this team. I DO NOT have a Dirty player and did I NOT foul once. I build teams to win.
Winning Blood bowl games you need to do 3 things properly 1)block 2) pass 3) catch. I have 2 bash teams (CD + Undead) that will have more wins than losses. WHY? Because they are built to block, pass and catch. Fouling is not a strategy unless the other coach asks for it. I never resort to fouling, I only respond to it.
If you cannot get as many SPP with your bash teams, then you need to evaluate yourself CUTE as a coach. Piling on, RSF, tackle, dirty player ARE NOT the only skills in the game. How about a chaos coach that that takes (gasp) extra arms? Or catch or sprint? They are not whining about your fouling, they are whining because you resorting to a tactic of last resort for poor coaches. Sort of like the Iraqis are doing, if you cant win, play dirty. |
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Check out the latest Darkwolf "***Did you know?" in his bio! Each month, a new Darkwolf factoid!
http://fumbbl.com/FUMBBL.php?page=coachinfo&coach=768 |
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Nightbird
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Apr 01, 2003 - 01:54 |
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Well said Mojo/ Aperon. I also agree with Mirascael. I see both sides of this as I coach both basher and elf teams. I do occasionally foul if the situation is very advantageous and the player is worth getting out of the game. I don't however employ dirty players or Piling on men and that is by choice. While I see the advantages of using these tactics I just don't care to employ them, because there are simply so many better choices of skills. I actually think that PO needs some work with it rules.
Even though I play basher teams I play to win not to simply kill maim other teams. When I see a team set-up with lotz of DP, PO, RSC men I just avoid them, because they play to maim/kill and if they lose and win the casualty battle in their minds they win and that's not my style. Going into a game like that is just not productive to building a team and that's what I enjoy.
Which leads me to my real point, this game is about ENJOYMENT so stop all the whinning. If someone doesn't want to play you because your team is a bunch of killers then it obviously wouldn't be fun to THEM and that's what it's really about, THEM having fun first and foremost. So leave it at that folks.
No one is ever going to agree on this subject so lets just agree not to agree. Nuff said!
~Nightbird |
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AsperonThorn
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Apr 01, 2003 - 01:56 |
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Ouch, Can we take out the last sentance please, Darkwolf. I think thats going to light a whole new fire.
Asperon Thorn |
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Frankenstein
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Apr 01, 2003 - 02:20 |
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Nightbird + Darkwolf: Good Points!
I don't mind if coaches build killer teams with zillions of DPs, MBs and POs. I just don't feel obliged to play against them with a Woodie-Team that gets mashed every second game anyhow.
And I don't mind losing zillions of players too, it just happens and became sort of a running gag to me.
Still, the argument that AG-teams would be favoured since they have reportedly managed a completion once in turn 16 is so incredibly lame as far as my experience is concerned, that I considered it necessary, to deny the statement basher-teams would be at a disadvantage with regard to SPPs. That simply is not true. And I still think DP is too strong (as is PO when declared after the block).
Anyhow, I do foul in the last turn of a match, if my opponent indulged heavily in violence. And I once niggled a very good Chaos-Beastman with a turn 16 foul and will never regret that one. His boys hit my Woodies severly and fouled a lot. Why shouldn't I retaliate only because it was the last turn? It's a meta-game consideration: If people know that you will strike back if they exaggerate the slaughter they might consider to avoid unnecessary fouls in the upcoming matches against you. It was hilarious that this Chaos-Coach complained about that foul. And I'd really like a reputation of being a fair player as long as my opponents play fair and becoming dirty when they are indulging in butchering my team. |
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Mr-Klipp
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Apr 01, 2003 - 03:04 |
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Darkwolf, back up those statements or they mean nothing at all. Picking one aspect of the game and saying that anyone who needs to use it is a poor coach is an unjustified statement. I could as easily say that anyone who needs to pass is a poor coach, as if they were really good they would be able to manage scoring with just a handoff here and there. The fact that you do not use or like an aspect of the game does not mean that those who do are somehow inferior. And as for playing dirty, as I made quite clear in an earlier post, this is a dirty game. Always has been, always will be. You don't have to play dirty if you don't like, but saying that anyone who does is a bad coach is no better than a child crying and taking their ball and going home when the other kids don't want to play by their favorite rules. |
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bodhisfattva
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Apr 01, 2003 - 05:20 |
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how about playing a nice game of checkers instead of Blood Bowl. Fouling is part of the game even on turn 8 second half just as much as a one turn scorer is part of the game. The name of the game is BLOOD BOWL for christs sake!!!! The name of the game isnt Handshakes and Touchdowns. If you dont like it play dolls with your little sister but play me and I will foul your star runner with my junk lineman if i get a chance. I will surround your big man with 8 people and fould him out of the game so I can dominate the line. You dont like it well too bad becuse i happen to play "blood bowl" not "hippy flower dance bowl". |
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