poi66
Joined: Aug 16, 2003
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 Posted:
Feb 24, 2004 - 09:02 |
 
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Phew... I have a HE team in DivX which made 20k winnings (at TR 220 - 230) in 5 matches, with negatives it would have been zero! That would have been 5 matches without apo... 
IMO this hurts the fluffy teams much more than the tough ones. Not ranting, just thinking... |
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RandomOracle
Joined: Jan 11, 2004
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Feb 24, 2004 - 09:44 |
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I really like this change and I will certainly be making a team in DivX to try it out. I've read a lot of stuff posted by Tom Anders and others at TBB and I agree with a lot of their reasoning. This will remove the one thing I hated most about ageing -- the fear of getting new skills. Getting a new skill is one of the most exciting off-pitch things in BB, and ageing pretty much negates that. |
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Mr-Klipp
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Feb 24, 2004 - 09:53 |
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| RandomOracle wrote: | | This will remove the one thing I hated most about ageing -- the fear of getting new skills. |
What a lot of people seem not to notice is that this is also one of the most important things ageing dose. Not the fear of a new skill, but making ageing most directly affect those that affect the game the most. Want to use that one turner every single turn? Fine, but he is going to soak up all your spp and age out quick. Not any more. You have a nice str5 ag 4 claw chaos warrior running back? Well, with av 9 and no ageing he will stay uninjured for a long time.
Basically, the fact that ageing targets the players who had the highest direct impact on the game (via spp scored) was one of the most important things making it not just a method of limiting super star teams, but preventing teams from having a couple of stars that do all the work. |
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Surtur
Joined: Jan 09, 2004
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Feb 24, 2004 - 09:53 |
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New rules are sound nice to me. With teams that dont suffer much from injuries like orcs and dwarfs the negative winnings will take a nice bite and range of tr/str in teams will hopefully be cutted so that those boring tr 300-400 teams will be more historical than every day stuff.
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I agree with peikko, but still I see the whole ageing thing as a good way of natures own selection. I am still new to Java BB and thus haven't had the experience of a great star of mine receiving a niggle one after another, but still I think that it is nice to have something rusting your team away. Almost like in the normal world.
I might be wrong, but still I wanted to show a different perspect on the matter at hand. |
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Aequitas
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Feb 24, 2004 - 10:37 |
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This is like a dream come true. I despise aging, it's ruined my chaos team for the most part, yet they struggle on. But with these changes I'll likely play most of my games in DX from here on out. I'm curious about the Freebooting Apo and negative winnings. I rather like high TR teams/games so the negative winnings kinda sucks big time, but it will be interesting to check it out nonetheless.
Anyway, yarr! Good work and stuff, DX finally looks interesting again. |
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Aequitas
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Feb 24, 2004 - 10:43 |
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| Mr-Klipp wrote: |
Basically, the fact that ageing targets the players who had the highest direct impact on the game (via spp scored) was one of the most important things making it not just a method of limiting super star teams, but preventing teams from having a couple of stars that do all the work. |
I see your point, but for some of us with terrible luck it did far more then that. And although you'll point out it is bad luck just effecting a small percentage, it really ruined the game for some of us. My chaos team had/has atrocious luck with aging. I've had players age on first skill, several on 2nd skill, practically 75% chance or higher that every player will fail on 3rd skill, gets higher for more skills. And I'm looking at the chart right now and I know it shouldn't be that high, but it damn well is for me. My best players retire from aging. Like my chaos warrior, N, -AV, -MA.. and 2 awesome players both niggle and -STR from aging. XDFSDFSDF.
What can you do.. bah. Sucks when you have a hard time creating any player with a few skills without aging. And looking at some teams like Charade with many players with 5+ skills and NO aging anywhere, it makes me want to break down and cry. Why? Why me? Whhyyy..
Anyway, thank god you guys changed DX to what it is. I can live with negative winnings and I'll finally be able to get skills without cringing and/or crying like a little girl with a skinned knee. SALVATION! |
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RandomOracle
Joined: Jan 11, 2004
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Feb 24, 2004 - 12:19 |
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| Mr-Klipp wrote: |
What a lot of people seem not to notice is that this is also one of the most important things ageing dose. Not the fear of a new skill, but making ageing most directly affect those that affect the game the most. Want to use that one turner every single turn? Fine, but he is going to soak up all your spp and age out quick. Not any more. You have a nice str5 ag 4 claw chaos warrior running back? Well, with av 9 and no ageing he will stay uninjured for a long time.
Basically, the fact that ageing targets the players who had the highest direct impact on the game (via spp scored) was one of the most important things making it not just a method of limiting super star teams, but preventing teams from having a couple of stars that do all the work. |
Ageing does tend to affect the super stars, but from I've read at the TBB, that wasn't its main purpose. To quote Tom Anders (currently a member of the BBRC):
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From the emails my league received from the BBRC, it was made abundantly clear that aging was meant ONLY as a mechanism to encourage teams to turnover players. The end goal was to control TR growth. It was NEVER meant to curb super players. The idea was that the leading cause of TR growth was the super player so let's encourage folks to retire them. IE the point of aging ALWAYS was TR management. IN FACT, we received emails that said if an alternate method of controlling TR growth WITHOUT targetting super players was thought of to suggest it to the BBRC during the testing phase as it was NOT a goal to target the super players.
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His post can be found here.
I'm of the opinion that people should be allowed to have super players if they wish, but they have to deal with the TR that they bring to the team. If the TR gets too big, they won't be able to hire an apothecary, after which the super star (who is a prime target on the pitch) has a very good chance of being injured or killed. |
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has
Joined: Oct 22, 2003
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Feb 24, 2004 - 13:18 |
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| peikko wrote: | | has wrote: | | For us slightly absent-minded coaches, it would be nice if there would be an option "always freeboot apothecary if cash available" so one doesn't have to remember the freebooting step before each match. |
Silly idea, should there also be big red flashing light that you remember make every block and try to score? 
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Well, some people actually want to play bloodbowl, not memory. Since most people would probably want to have an apothecary each match, why not provide a possibilty to get a reasonable default? Good default values is an established rule of thumb for designing good user interfaces.
I know som "power users" want to have the bare bone experience of having to do an explicit hiring each game, but having the option of not having to do that chore doesn't really affect them if they don't want to. (Except if it bugs them that some people float by without Doing The Right Bare Bone Thing.)
| peikko wrote: |
Youll remember your apo after you have forgot it couple times, besides its easy to reemmeber to buy the apo when you check out the new skills and buy new players anyway. |
Yes, most of the time, as long as you actually get any skills that match and have enough cash to buy a player.
Also, I suspect that there could be lots of poeple griping about this for the very reason you point out as a learning tool. My option would of course not fix this completely, but anything that can lessen the pressure on support is good. (But it might, of course, lessen the possibility for "hardcore" users to point fingers and say "haha, if you can't even hire an apothecary, maybe you shouldn't be playing at all".) |
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has
Joined: Oct 22, 2003
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Feb 24, 2004 - 13:31 |
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It would be neat if there was a "race dev" stats page for the divx division as well. Since the main potentially negative thing I can find about this rules change is that it will strike harder on low av teams, it would be interesting to know if this is actually the case. |
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poodle-man
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Feb 24, 2004 - 13:37 |
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Hmm. without ageing to reduce their effectiveness and with little income to buy support players may we soon see teams made up of 8 good players? Will neg winnings require player dismissal? or was that just a smoke filled dream i had? Has every sentence in this post been a question? |
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has
Joined: Oct 22, 2003
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Feb 24, 2004 - 13:45 |
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| poodle-man wrote: | | Hmm. without ageing to reduce their effectiveness and with little income to buy support players may we soon see teams made up of 8 good players? Will neg winnings require player dismissal? |
I don't think you have to fire anyone if you run into debt. As you don't get any money back when firing players anyway it wouldn't make sense - you'd still be in debt. In the slightly longer run you will, of course, have to fire players or risk running up serious debts which the team might never be able to cope with. |
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Covertfun
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Feb 24, 2004 - 14:00 |
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Just to hark briefly back to something -
please do not complain about new rules being tried in DivX
It is THE experimental division. That is why Vampires and Ogres are there, and why Khemri and Necro were there.
fumbbl offers the best playtesting in the universe for BB. While that is not its main purpose, complaining of changes that threaten your DivX team seems lacking in grandeur of vision.
The suggestion to transfer them into a refuge DivT is a good one - perhaps if there are many people who fear change for their hard-built DivX teams, someone can set up an open style league for DivX teams who like aging but worry about negative winnings.
I think the new rules sound really good; interesting, thoughtful, subtle in a way.
However, even if I thought they were the worst thing in all possible versions of existence, I would think that fumbbl DivX is the place to test and see.
(/me waits for riotous applause for this stirring speech)  |
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Jarnageddon
Joined: Nov 04, 2003
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Feb 24, 2004 - 14:01 |
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Hmm. isn't a question
I like the changes, but time will tell. |
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Mully
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Feb 24, 2004 - 15:07 |
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Peikko Wrote
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There is button on the page that transfers team into tournament division. Many people would have liked to keep the old PO and WA but for some reason they were not allowed to keep playing with old rules in Open while others are playing with new ones.
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Sorry Peikko, that comparison is idiotic. We are not talking about choosing not to follow LRB rules (PO/WA) we are talking about having teams that currently follow the ALL LRB rules now switching to follow "experimental" rules. There is a BIG difference. DivX WAS a league that followed the official rules, the only difference was that it allowed experimental TEAMS. Now that's not the case.
Peiko also wrote (while drinking heavily)
"Killing the league that is truely unique and bring variety would be very very evil thing."
No one (well almost no one) plays ladder. I can read the charts but would like to know how many actual ladder games get played a month. Would anyone even miss it?
As I rambled on earlier the non-ageing results from FUMBBL should be taken with a grain os salt. Bloodbowl was made to be played in leagues with balanced race schedules. Who know what the effect of "picking your schedule" will have on the these reults.
PS - Oh an most importantly ....... can we have more open slots PLEASE!!!
Even if you say max 10 slots between open and DivX. That wouldn't add more teams in total but would give coaches more flexibility.
Please ... please .. (whimpering now) .... please .... |
Last edited by Mully on %b %24, %2004 - %15:%Feb; edited 1 time in total |
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Mully
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Feb 24, 2004 - 15:12 |
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It is THE experimental division. That is why Vampires and Ogres are there, and why Khemri and Necro were there.
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I find it ironic that Force got flamed for his suggestions to turn DivX into a non-ageing league and that is EXACTLY what's happened. People that ripped him for his thoughts owe him an apology I guess ..... scary. |
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