FUMBBL :: Online Blood Bowl League

Sweet-Zombie-Jesus

Joined: Aug 30, 2008

Posted: Jul 20, 2011 - 07:35

Catalyst32 wrote:

Why not base the rules on... Canadian Lumberjack Competitions?

Catalyst has a point, fouling would be fixed if we were all lumberjacks, eh?

_________________
Do on to others, Before they do it you!

Calcium

Joined: Apr 08, 2007

Posted: Jul 20, 2011 - 11:31

Mr_Foulscumm wrote:

You do know this is a damn silly debate right? It's a board game. Very Happy

lol. yeah, it's a bit daft really! But then we are all bloody stupid to be wasting our lives here aern't we? Wink

WIthout debate, this place would be a much duller...

_________________

Mr_Foulscumm

Joined: Mar 05, 2005

Posted: Jul 20, 2011 - 13:42

Catalyst32 wrote:

Silly debate or not due to it being a board game... if we are going to debate it the MODEL the game is designed to resemble must be a consideration in the discussion. Trying to say the rules should resemble the way Soccer is played rather than the way American Football is played is ABSURD.
Why not base the rules on Volleyball, Baseball, Swimming or Canadian Lumberjack Competitions? Those events are officiated a certain way. Why not use them as your model to improve upon the rules of Blood Bowl? Maybe because that would be STUPID.

You know what is really stupid? Thinking that if you put stuff in caps it makes your point more VALID Very Happy

It's based of of American Football, but it's not American Football. The eye was a way more interesting game mechanic and in the end that's more important than accuracy in my opinion. I honestly couldn't care less if it's not how an actual referee would act while being chased by an angry troll.

_________________
Everybody's favorite coach on FUMBBL

pizzamogul

Joined: Jun 13, 2005

Posted: Jul 20, 2011 - 13:45

Azure wrote:

Essentially a nerf to PO...making PO more tactical instead of easy decision every time.

Piling On is basically "cheating" and should carry the same rules and penalties as fouling. That would be the best nerf in my opinion, add some actual tactics to using the skill.

Think about it, you would have to give some thought before Piling On: Is the Eye on me? Do I have a bribe left? Do I really want to risk trading my ClawPOMB for the chance to break this player's armor, or should I wait until I get to reroll the injury? Even if I don't get sent off, now my guy is laying on the ground and the Eye is off my opponent... can I protect my ClawPOMB from the counter foul?

Hell, even if the Eye is not brought back make PO follow the fouling rules: "Roll doubles on the reroll and get sent off by the ref."

_________________
"Don't expect mercy."
-Woodstock

Xanthania

Joined: Oct 10, 2008

Posted: Jul 20, 2011 - 13:50

Frankly the chance of a player being sent off should be based on his strength. If the ref even so much as suspects a snotling or halfling of committing a foul, does anyone honestly think he'll not toss the bugger out immediately? But if some troll just stomped on a guy's head, the ref has to be a fairly brave soul to throw him out of the game. So what should be done is we throw a die, on anything greater than the player's strength (or a 6), toss him. Otherwise put the eye on that team and increase the next foul roll by 2. This, together with the +1 to foul after a leap, will lead to many more DP leaping trolls, which frankly is what the game needs.

pythrr

Joined: Mar 07, 2006

Posted: Jul 20, 2011 - 13:51

Mr_Foulscumm wrote:

Catalyst32 wrote:

Silly debate or not due to it being a board game... if we are going to debate it the MODEL the game is designed to resemble must be a consideration in the discussion. Trying to say the rules should resemble the way Soccer is played rather than the way American Football is played is ABSURD.
Why not base the rules on Volleyball, Baseball, Swimming or Canadian Lumberjack Competitions? Those events are officiated a certain way. Why not use them as your model to improve upon the rules of Blood Bowl? Maybe because that would be STUPID.

You know what is really stupid? Thinking that if you put stuff in caps it makes your point more VALID Very Happy

It's based of of American Football, but it's not American Football. The eye was a way more interesting game mechanic and in the end that's more important than accuracy in my opinion. I honestly couldn't care less if it's not how an actual referee would act while being chased by an angry troll.

HOW DID MY SKELETON STRAIN ITS GROIN!@?

Mr_Foulscumm

Joined: Mar 05, 2005

Posted: Jul 20, 2011 - 13:51

pizzamogul wrote:

Azure wrote:

Essentially a nerf to PO...making PO more tactical instead of easy decision every time.

Piling On is basically "cheating" and should carry the same rules and penalties as fouling. That would be the best nerf in my opinion, add some actual tactics to using the skill.

Think about it, you would have to give some thought before Piling On: Is the Eye on me? Do I have a bribe left? Do I really want to risk trading my ClawPOMB for the chance to break this player's armor, or should I wait until I get to reroll the injury? Even if I don't get sent off, now my guy is laying on the ground and the Eye is off my opponent... can I protect my ClawPOMB from the counter foul?

Hell, even if the Eye is not brought back make PO follow the fouling rules: "Roll doubles on the reroll and get sent off by the ref."

I like it!

I vote Pizzamogul for president!

_________________
Everybody's favorite coach on FUMBBL

GAZZATROT

Joined: Apr 26, 2009

Posted: Jul 20, 2011 - 14:09

I agree, although if he's going to be President I'd prefer him in a suit.

_________________
Forever fearless, sometimes stupid.

DonTomaso

Joined: Feb 20, 2005

Posted: Jul 20, 2011 - 15:07

Mr_Foulscumm wrote:

pizzamogul wrote:

Azure wrote:

Essentially a nerf to PO...making PO more tactical instead of easy decision every time.

Piling On is basically "cheating" and should carry the same rules and penalties as fouling. That would be the best nerf in my opinion, add some actual tactics to using the skill.

Think about it, you would have to give some thought before Piling On: Is the Eye on me? Do I have a bribe left? Do I really want to risk trading my ClawPOMB for the chance to break this player's armor, or should I wait until I get to reroll the injury? Even if I don't get sent off, now my guy is laying on the ground and the Eye is off my opponent... can I protect my ClawPOMB from the counter foul?

Hell, even if the Eye is not brought back make PO follow the fouling rules: "Roll doubles on the reroll and get sent off by the ref."

I like it!

I vote Pizzamogul for president!

+1

And, tbh, since this (Fumbbl) now is FFB and not CRP, isn't it time we put together a commitee who has a look at what works and what doesn't when it comes to long term playing. CRP is for short tournaments, not hundreds of games.

_________________
====================================
Be careful, my common sense is tingling!

TheSpoonyBard

Joined: Aug 16, 2005

Posted: Jul 20, 2011 - 15:08

Random use of caps LOCK is pretty FUN. I think EVERYONE should do IT. Also REALISM in a game with ORCS and DWARVES and ELVES is more important than BALANCE or FUN.

_________________
"We've all heard that a million monkeys banging on a million typewriters will eventually reproduce the entire works of Shakespeare. Now, thanks to the Internet, we know this is not true."

~Robert Wilensky

http://thespoonybard.mybrute.com/

paulhicks

Joined: Jul 19, 2004

Posted: Jul 20, 2011 - 20:32

Catalyst32 wrote:

Also I think the Eye isn't as realistic as the random chance that the Ref might have turned his head at the right or wrong moment to see or not see the Foul. I work as a Ref and I know for a fact that Refs sometimes don't see a Foul and sometimes they call Fouls that didn't occur. Sports Officiating at the highest levels is tough because of the speed of the players.

In American Football with 22 players on the Field in the same general 1 squared meter all moving at the same time it is not possible to see what each player is doing. We (as refs) do everything we can to determine who is watching which players in which part of the action in every moment but we cannot catch everything. If we see it... we will Flag it (Penalize it)... but we can't see every foul.

The Eye has a place more in a sport like Soccer where the action is usually relatively spread out and the few bad eggs can be easily identified and watched. Blood Bowl is based on an interpretation of American Football... and the players never really know when we are watching them more closely (like a Yellow Carded player in Soccer knows the Ref has their eye on them).

Making the Officiating Random on whether or not the Ref saw something works better for authenticity. The Randomness takes into account Refs that call the game differently... for example some allow more roughness than others AND makes allowances within the game for Ref's that may just suck at their job and blow alot of calls. A bad Ref sometimes Penalizes a team when no foul has occurred or maybe the Ref was bribed unbeknownst to the coaches by a fan not to toss out a player

Not going to argue with any of that logic. I have no doubt its all true.
However, as i'm sure you realise, "real life" arguements and indeed sometimes basic natural laws have but a mere nodding aquantance with a fantasy game such as bloodbowl and come second to rules that actually work for the game.
In short: in an imaginary game, in an imaginary world, played by imaginary races, where getting hit with a running chainsaw may cause you to be a bit stunned but tripping over will often result in death... don't labour too hard for real life comparisons.

Catalyst32 wrote:

Because there is no safe 1st foul or Safe foul made while the Eye is on your opponent it is a better Deterent against fouling (which is a rules violation for the Players... despite it being totally legal for the coaches to foul when they want). Coaches on FUMBBL rarely foul on Turn 1 anymore because it isn't a nearly sure thing that they can foul safely. But Fouling still goes on and Fouling has a REAL RISK associated with it like any form of Dirty Play should..

I think the key difference for me is that the eye made it more tactical. Sure you got one "safe(r)" foul each half but if you were a mass team destroyer and your opponent was sensible your reckless every turn fouling was a bad strategy. It gave your opponent a partial counter to fouling. The problem was dp being waay overpowered when compaired to the difficulties in getting claw/rsc etc and how stupid get the ref was.
Going back to your points on realism think about the kind of team who would use a dp. You could well argue there would be 2 types:
1)Psychos: "Grr i'm gonna kick every thing i see in the face"... ref quickly notices this trend and watches closely... unless both teams are doing it in which case his "eye" has to be everywhere.
2) Sneaky bastards: "Playing ball, playing ball la de da oh look theres your ogre lying down and the ref not looking ...WOOPS.. i tripped"... surgical well timed strikes that have LEARNED to watch for the refs attention.
Suddenly your realistic approach applies to dp again Smile

[/quote]

paulhicks

Joined: Jul 19, 2004

Posted: Jul 20, 2011 - 20:42

Wraith wrote:

I agree 100%.

I think fouling should be risky and also feel that the reward is a bit lacking, I just don't want to see a single skill investment being over-powered again (like DP was in LRB4). It was a no-brainer to take only DP on a linemen type and trade that lineman for opposing positional players (which may or may not have had a lot of SPP as well).

I think allowing skills other than merely DP, to be usable on fouls, would balance the risk vs reward nicely. Skills such as claw, MB and PO.

I'm all for skill stacks operating at full effectiveness, you invested in the skills after all.

I agree dp in lrb4 was a no brainer and overpowered (especially with gtr).
I would really like to see dp become stackable but if you stacked with clawmb all that happens is chaos/nurg/pact teams become even more overpowered at wiping the field than many think they are now and the poor agile teams loose out even more.
My vision was one where clawpomb teams would still be the big bashers (as is only right.. someone has to be and theyve sacrificed a lot of ball playing skills) but that agile teams would end up with a 2 skill combo (yes yes sneaky git is sensible.. i just love leaping fouls) that allowed them a surgical strike (with IGMEOY) deterant to help a bit.

Catalyst32

Joined: Jul 14, 2008

Posted: Jul 20, 2011 - 21:45

pizzamogul wrote:

Azure wrote:

Essentially a nerf to PO...making PO more tactical instead of easy decision every time.

Piling On is basically "cheating" and should carry the same rules and penalties as fouling. That would be the best nerf in my opinion, add some actual tactics to using the skill.

Think about it, you would have to give some thought before Piling On: Is the Eye on me? Do I have a bribe left? Do I really want to risk trading my ClawPOMB for the chance to break this player's armor, or should I wait until I get to reroll the injury? Even if I don't get sent off, now my guy is laying on the ground and the Eye is off my opponent... can I protect my ClawPOMB from the counter foul?

Hell, even if the Eye is not brought back make PO follow the fouling rules: "Roll doubles on the reroll and get sent off by the ref."

That is an excellent suggestion... except for the part about bringing back the Eye... the Eye stinks... Frodo already put it out forever by making Gollum eat that ring and his finger.

Catalyst32

Joined: Jul 14, 2008

Posted: Jul 20, 2011 - 21:51

paulhicks wrote:

[
Going back to your points on realism think about the kind of team who would use a dp. You could well argue there would be 2 types:
1)Psychos: "Grr i'm gonna kick every thing i see in the face"... ref quickly notices this trend and watches closely... unless both teams are doing it in which case his "eye" has to be everywhere.
2) Sneaky bastards: "Playing ball, playing ball la de da oh look theres your ogre lying down and the ref not looking ...WOOPS.. i tripped"... surgical well timed strikes that have LEARNED to watch for the refs attention.
Suddenly your realistic approach applies to dp again Smile

[/quote]

Example of player type #1 - Bill Romanowski retired, formerly of the Raiders
#2 - The Detroit Pistons during the Bad Boys Era

The Eye still sucks... the only reason you guys like it is because you played with it for so long.

paulhicks

Joined: Jul 19, 2004

Posted: Jul 20, 2011 - 22:17

Catalyst32 wrote:

The Eye still sucks... the only reason you guys like it is because you played with it for so long.

Always possible of course but i dont consider myself particularly resistant to change. After all of the 3 changes i talked about (dp's damage, GTR and the eye) i have stated that i'm in favour of the first 2. Therefor dismissing my arguements as "oh you just don't like change" seems a little unfair no? Very Happy

_________________
Spelling, grammer and sense are for noobs!