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VoodooMike



Joined: Nov 07, 2010

Post   Posted: Sep 28, 2011 - 02:24 Reply with quote Back to top

Tricktickler wrote:
What I meant was "therefore there is still no reason to think clawpomb is balanced".

Balanced against what? I see this term "balanced" used a lot, but people never explain what it is supposedly being balanced against and found wanting. Did the game designers say "We never want the chance of causing a casualty to go higher than 30%" and thus, this is not balanced against that figure? Is the figure you're balancing it against something official, or just something you've made up yourself?

Honestly, I'm curious about this. What is it you feel constitutes an acceptable figure, and why is a higher figure a feature of something being "broken"?

Tricktickler wrote:
I neved used the word absolute certain. However I do think a lot of people are overconfident in the fend argument.

This goes back to what I said about never being able to completely prevent a team, or player, that is built around a specific action from performing that action. Does Fend reduce the CLPOMB combination's chance of causing a casualty, overall? If so, then it is something that can help you defend against that combination. It's not supposed to negate it entirely - there's no reason you should be able to negate the synergy of 3 skill picks entirely, especially not with one skill pick.

Also the term "overpowered" - what is the power level that we've decided is acceptable, that this combination exceeds? It'd be easier to find common ground with all sides of the argument if that were hammered out.
Tricktickler



Joined: Jul 10, 2004
Location: Sweden

Post   Posted: Sep 28, 2011 - 05:11 Reply with quote Back to top

VoodooMike wrote:
Balanced against what? I see this term "balanced" used a lot, but people never explain what it is supposedly being balanced against and found wanting. Did the game designers say "We never want the chance of causing a casualty to go higher than 30%" and thus, this is not balanced against that figure? Is the figure you're balancing it against something official, or just something you've made up yourself?

Honestly, I'm curious about this. What is it you feel constitutes an acceptable figure, and why is a higher figure a feature of something being "broken"?

Its unbalanced because its messes with the strategical parts of the game. Instead of a game with a big strategical variety with lots of different tactics to use to increase your chances to win you get a game with only one way of winning and that is clawpombing your way to the win. Because that tactic is so much better than any other tactic. A noob using clawpomb players can easily beat a pro just because clawpomb is so overpowered. And if both players use clawpombers, then its basically just only a question of luck who wins.

The chance of causing a cas should be like it was in LRB4. The tactic of using specialized killers and try to blitz with them every round against an opponent with low armor was very powerful even in LRB4, but now they have made that tactic super overpowered. So the chance of cas should be like it was in LRB4. However with aging removed, which is a very good change they have done in lrb6 since aging went against the concept of earning experience points, more players need to be killed in replacement of aging. And the solution to that is changing the Casualty Table. The chance of getting a badly hurt result should be decreased and the chance of getting a permanent injury or getting the player killed should be increased.
koadah



Joined: Mar 30, 2005
Location: London, UK

Post   Posted: Sep 28, 2011 - 07:35 Reply with quote Back to top

Tricktickler wrote:
VoodooMike wrote:
Balanced against what? I see this term "balanced" used a lot, but people never explain what it is supposedly being balanced against and found wanting. Did the game designers say "We never want the chance of causing a casualty to go higher than 30%" and thus, this is not balanced against that figure? Is the figure you're balancing it against something official, or just something you've made up yourself?

Honestly, I'm curious about this. What is it you feel constitutes an acceptable figure, and why is a higher figure a feature of something being "broken"?

Its unbalanced because its messes with the strategical parts of the game. Instead of a game with a big strategical variety with lots of different tactics to use to increase your chances to win you get a game with only one way of winning and that is clawpombing your way to the win. Because that tactic is so much better than any other tactic. A noob using clawpomb players can easily beat a pro just because clawpomb is so overpowered. And if both players use clawpombers, then its basically just only a question of luck who wins.

The chance of causing a cas should be like it was in LRB4. The tactic of using specialized killers and try to blitz with them every round against an opponent with low armor was very powerful even in LRB4, but now they have made that tactic super overpowered. So the chance of cas should be like it was in LRB4. However with aging removed, which is a very good change they have done in lrb6 since aging went against the concept of earning experience points, more players need to be killed in replacement of aging. And the solution to that is changing the Casualty Table. The chance of getting a badly hurt result should be decreased and the chance of getting a permanent injury or getting the player killed should be increased.


But oh wait.

Then you are totally unbalancing the game because low AV teams get massacred every match instead of the one game in 50 where you actually meet an evil C-POMBer. Wink

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Niebling



Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Post   Posted: Sep 28, 2011 - 07:57 Reply with quote Back to top

Its unbalanced because everyone is doing it.

Simple as that.

Balance is when everything in the game is represented evenly, this usually happens if all options are valid for what ever purpose people are playing, fun, competative etc.( so in fact in never happpens, but you can try for it)

That being said its easy to see that clawpomb is unbalanced in Black Box (I make no claim to any other environment) simply because (almost) any team above 200TV is a clawpomb team. Hence when their seems to be only one valid option there must be some kind of balance issue.

Back in the days Block was the most popular skill choice (it still is) I was a MUST have skill for (again almost) every player. So clearly there was a balance issue with Block. So someone sat down and came up with the Wrestle skill.

So rather the issue should be, should there be a change to Black Box to try and correct this balance issue? and if so what form should this change have.

Personally I only care that what ever is done does not effect the official rule set.

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Overhamsteren



Joined: May 27, 2006

Post   Posted: Sep 28, 2011 - 08:10 Reply with quote Back to top

Clawplomb coaches are unbalanced, mentally.

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h0lydiver



Joined: May 16, 2010

Post   Posted: Sep 28, 2011 - 08:40 Reply with quote Back to top

Niebling: it´s not only broken in B. It´s equally broken in any environment, the only difference is in R you can avoid it. Imagine they changed the undead roster so all the zombies have +2 ST for free. All you would see in the box is undead teams. That wouldn´t mean undead would only be broken in B. Just in R, you would avoid undead (precisely cause they would be broken).

And about block, it would never be broken because all teams (except stunties) could pick it. That´s a big difference.
Garion



Joined: Aug 19, 2009

Post   Posted: Sep 28, 2011 - 08:42 Reply with quote Back to top

This thread is unbalanced. Who keeps bringing it back from its grave?

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garyt1



Joined: Mar 12, 2011

Post   Posted: Sep 28, 2011 - 08:44 Reply with quote Back to top

koadah wrote:
Then you are totally unbalancing the game because low AV teams get massacred every match instead of the one game in 50 where you actually meet an evil C-POMBer. Wink

It would though the C-POMBer is certainly not as rare as you suggest.
Niebling



Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Post   Posted: Sep 28, 2011 - 09:40 Reply with quote Back to top

h0lydiver wrote:
Niebling: it´s not only broken in B. It´s equally broken in any environment, the only difference is in R you can avoid it. Imagine they changed the undead roster so all the zombies have +2 ST for free. All you would see in the box is undead teams. That wouldn´t mean undead would only be broken in B. Just in R, you would avoid undead (precisely cause they would be broken).

And about block, it would never be broken because all teams (except stunties) could pick it. That´s a big difference.


I avoid the word broken on purpose. I would rather talk about balance. And when one skill is a no brainier like block was, the skill system has issues. Now with Wrestle there is a real choice, hence the system is a bit more balanced.

ill use the word broken now, I dont think clawpomb is broken in every environment. Short term leagues that run only 15 games wont be won by a clawpomb team, also if you look at the black cup the 3 winners are elf darkelf and woodelf.
So you could argue that elfs are borken in tournements Wink

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koadah



Joined: Mar 30, 2005
Location: London, UK

Post   Posted: Sep 28, 2011 - 11:43 Reply with quote Back to top

garyt1 wrote:
koadah wrote:
Then you are totally unbalancing the game because low AV teams get massacred every match instead of the one game in 50 where you actually meet an evil C-POMBer. Wink

It would though the C-POMBer is certainly not as rare as you suggest.


Interesting. I looked at your record and your seem to play almost all of your matches between 1400 and 1550.

IMO that's the 'Cheeser' zone. Wink
It might just be that the games that you seem most unhappy about are those against people who were known cheesers even in LRB4. Twisted Evil

Most of my games seem to be 1550-1850. Maybe I'll call that the 'Real Blood Bowl' zone. There are plenty of tough teams there to be sure but I don't have the feeling that C-POMB or anything else is ruining the game.

Now, if I get too big for my boots and stray over 1900 into 'Ultra Killer' zone a nice ultra killer team will kindly put me back in my place. Wink

Now, I don't feel the need to bulk up to face ultra killers anyway. When I face them I may as well be going in with a wizard, babes and extra apoth than with extra players who are just going to just die and cost me money. Wink

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Hitonagashi



Joined: Apr 09, 2006

Post   Posted: Sep 28, 2011 - 12:12 Reply with quote Back to top

I love playing elves at 1600-1800 TV in the box. I find their games really challenging at that TV(with 11 players and usually 3-4 journeymen Very Happy) , and it's by far the best way to learn how to beat the killer teams.

If you don't play against them, you'll never know how to beat them when you need to in a Major.

What Koadah said...you can recover to that TV really quickly pretty much whatever the casualty count, and there's a fair variety there (even if I keep getting drawn against Nihonto Sad ).
stej



Joined: Jan 05, 2009

Post   Posted: Sep 28, 2011 - 13:36 Reply with quote Back to top

In game balance - Fine, just lots of varience as you get games when clawpomb works every time and you win easy or it never works and you are out of position and lose. Possibly increases the "luck" factor of the game which could be good or bad depending on your view.

Out of game balance - Not great, lots more cas = lots more chance of perms = lots more chance of teams being destroyed = no fun for the crushed teams and means they cant ever get to a higher level. Similar to old DP. I'm sure people would have happily played the multi DP teams if fouling at most made for a BH injury.

How about po and claw apply to your own armour roll if you roll a skull or a both down and have no block?
Tricktickler



Joined: Jul 10, 2004
Location: Sweden

Post   Posted: Sep 28, 2011 - 20:16 Reply with quote Back to top

koadah wrote:
But oh wait.

Then you are totally unbalancing the game because low AV teams get massacred every match instead of the one game in 50 where you actually meet an evil C-POMBer. Wink

Dunno exactly what you mean. But nerfing Pilling On will help av7 teams most since Pilling On is especially good vs low AV.
Purplegoo



Joined: Mar 23, 2006
Location: Cambridge, England

Post   Posted: Sep 28, 2011 - 20:19 Reply with quote Back to top

Oh mummy, the balance police are out today... Wink

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koadah



Joined: Mar 30, 2005
Location: London, UK

Post   Posted: Sep 28, 2011 - 20:25 Reply with quote Back to top

Tricktickler wrote:
koadah wrote:
But oh wait.

Then you are totally unbalancing the game because low AV teams get massacred every match instead of the one game in 50 where you actually meet an evil C-POMBer. Wink

Dunno exactly what you mean. But nerfing Pilling On will help av7 teams most since Pilling On is especially good vs low AV.


It doesn't help me as I don't encounter enough C-POMBers for it to be a problem. But you seem to want to make every player a killer. Wink

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