Xeterog
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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 Posted:
Mar 04, 2004 - 17:44 |
 
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There is a bug in the way assists are handled with Multi-block.
here is the problem as I see it:
| Code: | <pg 21 of the LRB>
In order to make an assist, the player:
1. Must be adjacent to the enemy player involved in the block, and...
2. Must not be in the tackle zone of any other player from the opposing team.
3. Must be standing.
<pg 36 of the LRB>
Multiple Block (Strength Skill)
The player is allowed to block two opposing players at the same time. The
opposing players must be next to the player making the block and next to each
other. Their strengths are added together and both suffer the effects of the
block equally. Both sides may use assists normally.
in the game (url provided), a Mummy multiblocked two of my players. Here is
the set up (M-mummy, T-targets of the Multiblock, D-Other dwarves, Z-other
undead) Mummy str 5, Targets both str 3. No Guard on the undead team (the
target in the middle had guard, but that doesn't count as he is a target)
Z..
.d.
.TM
.TZ
..Z
By the rules, this should have been a 1db (mummy + 1 assist), but the client
had it doing a 2db. (boty POW, so it really didn't make a differnce in this
game)
(rule #2 from assists and from Multi-block the last sentence "Both sides may
use assists normally")
Technically, the Undead next to the Mummy cannot lend an assist vs either of
the targets as he is in the TZ of another opposoing player. |
When I submitted the bug report, it was closed with the following
| Code: | In a normal block, the blocked player does not count toward stopping opponent
players from assisting.
In a multiblock the two blocked players are essentially treated as one player
that takes up two squares. Thus the two squares are counted as the blocked
player.
(rule #2 from assists and from Multi-block the last sentence "Both sides may
use assists normally")
As the two players are essentially treated as one, they do not stop the zombie
next to the mummy from assisting. And since the two players are treated as one
rule #1 below is also still followed.
Basically to give an offensive or defensive assist you must not be involved in
the block yourself and you must not be next to an opponent that is NOT involved
in the block.
Logically, is see it makes sense. The two blocked players are too busy
fighting with the mummy for either one to stop the zombie from helping out.
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This is incorrect, as the two players being blocked are only considered one player for the player making the Multiblock. Other players assist 'normally'. This includes being stopped from assisting even if they are only in both targets TZ.
There even happens to be a discussion about this in TalkBloodbowl right now (I didn't start it over there, nor have I commented on it yet)
http://www.talkbloodbowl.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=10902
edit:
also, here is a longer discussion about it:
http://www.talkbloodbowl.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=869&highlight=multiblock
and a slighly older discussion:
http://www.talkbloodbowl.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=6255&highlight=multiblock |
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Mully
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
Mar 04, 2004 - 19:01 |
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Gortex - thanks. A good post for those of us who "think" we knew it all.
(ie me) |
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Severian
Joined: Dec 12, 2003
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| Posted:
Mar 04, 2004 - 19:13 |
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Holy crap...this kind of discussion makes me wonder if Physics or Mother Nature have their own rules defense attornies.
If so those guys aren't paid enough. |
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Xeterog
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
Mar 04, 2004 - 19:33 |
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The race I play the most is dwarves..and I often take Multiblock for my Slayers..so I've become very familar with how multiblock works over the years...it is not a skill that is taken very often by most coaches. |
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Mully
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
Mar 04, 2004 - 19:46 |
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Although I must admit I disagree with the "official" ruling from TBB. Think about it.
You're Ogre is blocking 2 opponents. You would like your 2 linemen to assist in that block. What difference should it make if the 2 lineman are also in the 2 opponents tackle zones?
Picture this :
O = Ogre
L = your lineman
Z = opponent
.........O
.........ZZ.
..........LL....
Theoretically if the Ogre is going to smash these two opponents to the ground there would be no differecen from this 1st scenario than from the next one below. Although the TBB rules would say otherwise.
.........O
.........ZZ
........L....L |
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Xeterog
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
Mar 04, 2004 - 19:53 |
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One big difference..in the 1st one, the two linemen are in the TZ of two opposing players, while in the 2nd one, the each of the linemen is in the TZ of only one opposing player.
Look at it like this..if the ogre was not going to use multiblock, whould he get any assist in the 1st example you put in?
would the Ogre get any assists in the 2nd example? This would be the 'normal' situation (ie. a normal block/blitz action)
With multiblock, each team counts assists as normal..thus would only get assists from the 2nd example that Mully posted..only that example has players that can assist normally. |
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Darkwolf
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
Mar 04, 2004 - 20:11 |
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Hmm, intersting. But if the rules that TWO players being the target of multi block are treated as ONE player, then in both of Mully's examples, the Mummy would receive 2d block (and hopefully double pow with four sixes for av roll)
But if that is the intent, then the rules should define or give examples of multi-blocked players. |
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BadMrMojo
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
Mar 04, 2004 - 20:44 |
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| Darkwolf wrote: | | Hmm, intersting. But if the rules that TWO players being the target of multi block are treated as ONE player, then in both of Mully's examples, the Mummy would receive 2d block (and hopefully double pow with four sixes for av roll)... |
I think the key is that only their strengths are added together to be treated as one player. Not their tacklezones, etc... |
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AsperonThorn
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
Mar 04, 2004 - 21:10 |
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When the rules are kind of grey, I always like to think of it as common sense. In a regular block, contact with other players prevents them from helping out a friend in a block, ie they are watching each others back. (I never think of blood blowl players as just standing there, they are always pushing and shoving just not as much, as when it is thier action.)
In a multiblock, both those players are targets, and both of them are getting slammed by a stronger player, I think thier full attention is on the mummy and not about looking out for thier buddies back. So I think both of Mully's examples are true.
Asperon Thorn |
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Xeterog
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
Mar 04, 2004 - 21:19 |
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Another thing to think about...why make it easier for one player to throw a block against 2 opponents? You already have an advantage of being able to block 2 players at once...adding the advantage that assist work differently for multiblock than for a normal block just makes it that much easier to get the 2db Multiblock off. |
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Mully
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
Mar 04, 2004 - 21:19 |
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Gortex/Mojo - I understand what the "rules" say about the situation. I am asking you to look at it in a "realistic" fashion.
If the Ogre above were to try and knock over the 2 opposing players with multiblock, and there were 2 lineman helping to knock the 2 players down on the other side, what difference would/should it make it they 2 players were in the opponent's tackle zones?
Without thinking about the rules, just look at the 2 pictures and think why the 2 lineman could help out in 1 scenario and not the other. Sort of what Asperon was saying. |
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Xeterog
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
Mar 04, 2004 - 22:19 |
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This is a game in non-realitic fantasy world...why would I want to look at something 'realisticly' when there isn't much realitic about the game in the 1st place.
The rules are pretty clear to me, and they make sense to me. |
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AsperonThorn
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
Mar 04, 2004 - 22:39 |
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What? That's the lamest cop out answer I have ever heard.
Well the rules are fairly clear to me, and I disagree with you, so there!  |
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Darkwolf
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
Mar 04, 2004 - 22:43 |
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I cannot think of a time when a NFL O-line men blocked two opposing linemen at once. I've seen NFL Line men block players into others, but it is usually unententional.
I can see Gortex's points where multi-block possibly being open to abuse and becoming the next po craze. I am certainly going to take it more often with my Khermi Mummy's now, and combined with all the guard I can have, I can see some times blocking up to 4 players per turn with only two players. |
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Britnoth
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
Mar 04, 2004 - 22:51 |
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The client works fine as it is - it makes perfect sense and the rules do say both players are treated as one for the block, so during that block having just 1 tackle zone for them seems fair... if the 'official', and by that I mean there is actually an answer from the BBRC is saying it is otherwise then okay, but I'd rather see other things corrected first like diving tackle *cough*. 
As for who will take it... I've found that the best effect is when you have a mobile dauntless multiblock player. Yeah a mummy can block 2 players at once but you could probalby block either of them seperately and get 3 dice instead... but a multi block blitzer often causes coaches to stop placing their players adjacent to each other. Anything that makes your opponent change his plans is a help I find.  |
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