78 coaches online • Server time: 11:31
Index Search Usergroups Profile
Log in
Recent Forum Topics goto Post OWCC - Season VIIgoto Post Xhotl Sun Gods - For...goto Post Rush and Pass banter...
 
FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   ProfileProfile 
Post new topic   Reply to topic
View previous topic Log in to check your private messages View next topic
Poll
Ignoring Fluff reasons - Do you think CDs should have been give mutation access?
Yes
37%
 37%  [ 60 ]
No
36%
 36%  [ 59 ]
Pie!
11%
 11%  [ 18 ]
I'm just happy clicking something
15%
 15%  [ 25 ]
Total Votes : 162


Garion



Joined: Aug 19, 2009

Post   Posted: Jan 04, 2012 - 09:43 Reply with quote Back to top

koadah wrote:
Garion wrote:
I retire teams that enter the CPOMB zone for a reason. The game is stupidly boring once you enter it.


CPOMB zone is 1700+ and chaos do not become dominant until 1900+. Most of your teams get nowhere near that.


Yup 1700+ is the CPOMB zone, but I retire most teams that I have played 20+ games with around the 1500 - 1600 mark because CPOMB teams are quite common there as well and I would rather not face them every game or every other game. The game is just dull after this point for me anyway because of this ruleset and the way team development works.

Also yeah bladder is right quite a few of those teams were retired en masse about 2 or 3 months ago when i took a 2 month break from the game. But to say why does this all bother me is not on really. It bothers me because I dont want to min max/sweet spot and i dont want to play at a TV of 1600+ because of the way this rule set works. It bothers me because I can never happily develop teams anymore because i hate playing at a tv of 1600+.

But this thread isn't about why i retire teams. It is just asking why were CDs given access to Claw?
dode74



Joined: Aug 14, 2009

Post   Posted: Jan 04, 2012 - 10:19 Reply with quote Back to top

You got your answer to that here: http://www.talkfantasyfootball.org/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=35654

You didn't like the fluff answer (especially Darkson's one which showed models of 2-headed CDs) so you've now asked here if there is a gameplay reason. Not having stats to hand for CDs in LRB4, and more importantly not having any data on CDs without M access in a CRP environment, the answer is "I have no idea".

So let's reverse the question: is there any reason CDs shouldn't have access to mutations?
In terms of gameplay, it's fine, as the stats both from Plasmoid's leagues and FUMBBL show. If there is a gampeplay problem with CDs then it is how easy and effective it is to minmax with them, but that is a TV-based MM problem.
In terms of fluff, it works depending on which bit of fluff you want to take as gospel.
So there's no gameplay and no fluff reason to take M access away.

You say this isn't a CPOMB whine thread, but it's certainly coming across that way.
Qaz



Joined: Apr 28, 2004
Location: Malmö Sweden (Danish citizen)

Post   Posted: Jan 04, 2012 - 10:24 Reply with quote Back to top

dode74 wrote:
You got your answer to that here: http://www.talkfantasyfootball.org/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=35654

You didn't like the fluff answer (especially Darkson's one which showed models of 2-headed CDs) so you've now asked here if there is a gameplay reason. Not having stats to hand for CDs in LRB4, and more importantly not having any data on CDs without M access in a CRP environment, the answer is "I have no idea".

So let's reverse the question: is there any reason CDs shouldn't have access to mutations?
In terms of gameplay, it's fine, as the stats both from Plasmoid's leagues and FUMBBL show. If there is a gampeplay problem with CDs then it is how easy and effective it is to minmax with them, but that is a TV-based MM problem.
In terms of fluff, it works depending on which bit of fluff you want to take as gospel.
So there's no gameplay and no fluff reason to take M access away.

You say this isn't a CPOMB whine thread, but it's certainly coming across that way.


You sir makes some well thought arguments right there.

Still it would be nice if Cloggy and me where the only CD coaches around Wink

_________________
Superstition brings bad luck.

"he who has relied least on fortune is established
the strongest"
Niccolo Machiavelli
Garion



Joined: Aug 19, 2009

Post   Posted: Jan 04, 2012 - 10:49 Reply with quote Back to top

dode74 wrote:
You got your answer to that here: http://www.talkfantasyfootball.org/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=35654

You didn't like the fluff answer (especially Darkson's one which showed models of 2-headed CDs)


I'm not sure I did get the answer? What was it i cant find it? Was it just the fluff reasons?

and I did like that fluff answer from Darkson. But as i said there, if we are returning to 2nd ed fluff and ignoring the Big Hat CDs where their fluff changed for 3rd ed then I would have much rather seen the proper 2nd ed implementation of mutations and everything that comes with it namely Random mutations
dode74



Joined: Aug 14, 2009

Post   Posted: Jan 04, 2012 - 11:01 Reply with quote Back to top

DoubleSkulls wrote:
The need is that they are Chaos Dwarves and according to the background mutate.
http://www.talkfantasyfootball.org/viewtopic.php?p=628526#p628526

Quote:
if we are returning to 2nd ed fluff and ignoring the Big Hat CDs where their fluff changed for 3rd ed then I would have much rather seen the proper 2nd ed implementation of mutations and everything that comes with it namely Random mutations
As was said in that thread (referenced to the links you gave), BB world is not WFB world. There are parallels but they are not necessarily consistent between each other. That means that the designers get to pick and choose, and if it comes to internal consistency in BB (i.e. that all teams get to pick mutations - and whether you agree that they should is a different argument altogether) or consistency between BB fluff and WFB fluff then I pick internal consistency every time.
Corvidius



Joined: Feb 15, 2011

Post   Posted: Jan 04, 2012 - 11:10 Reply with quote Back to top

Non random mutations work because someone who wants the team to win chooses the Mutations, whether that's the coach or a chaos god it means that random mutations wouldn't make sense.
Garion



Joined: Aug 19, 2009

Post   Posted: Jan 04, 2012 - 11:16 Reply with quote Back to top

But the fluff hasnt been consistent in BB. I too prefer the 2nd ed fluff over 3rd ed. But from 3rd ed on the mutating dwarves were gone in favour of the Hashut worshiping big hat Chaos Dwarves. Then we get to lrb5 and CRP where a lot of the fluff changes back to 2nd ed.

If they get mutations and move away from the big hat CDs then imo they should have been random as that was the fluff and rules in 2nd ed.

But fluff reasons aside, in my experience it makes them too good against all races other than Chaos and Nurgle. I just wanted to know what other people felt about that really and at the moment, it seems to be split right down the middle really.
anisdrin



Joined: Apr 10, 2009

Post   Posted: Jan 04, 2012 - 11:26 Reply with quote Back to top

I would love the best mutation ever created to come back: SPONTANEOUS COMBUSTION!!!
How many laughs we had with that skill.
dode74



Joined: Aug 14, 2009

Post   Posted: Jan 04, 2012 - 11:35 Reply with quote Back to top

Internally consistent within a ruleset, not chronologically consistent. The fluff can change over time as required to make the gameplay work, but it would make far less sense for one race to be able to choose mutations and another to get them randomly within the same ruleset.

Experience is overrated as an arbiter of these things. The stats show that they are in the bracket, if at the top end, and are therefore fine. How people "feel" about it in a poll is rather irrelevant too, as perceptual and sampling biases will determine who posts and votes.
Garion



Joined: Aug 19, 2009

Post   Posted: Jan 04, 2012 - 11:46 Reply with quote Back to top

Well i think stats are fine, but we still dont have any good ones that we can reliably use yet, we dont have nay information from leagues yet and we wont until they have run for a good few season, as you say polls arent great either and personal experience is well personal.

All these things are best used when put together, none of them are be all and end all.
dode74



Joined: Aug 14, 2009

Post   Posted: Jan 04, 2012 - 11:49 Reply with quote Back to top

Plasmoid's stats are from leagues. Why do you say they are unreliable? Even with the somewhat limited number of games (~1400) we can still put the win% in the bracket to 95% confidence.
pythrr



Joined: Mar 07, 2006
Location: in a treee

Post   Posted: Jan 04, 2012 - 12:02 Reply with quote Back to top

Personally I think ALL mutations should be random for all teams. You know, kinda Chaos-like?

But hey, them's not the rules, sadly, as the CRP rules have make it all a bit too much points based team munchkiny ish.

_________________
ImageImage
Garion



Joined: Aug 19, 2009

Post   Posted: Jan 04, 2012 - 12:05 Reply with quote Back to top

+1 Pythrr

and yeah plasmoids stats are from leagues, but they are almost all from short run leagues, not perpetual or even long length. Those are the same stats that the BBRC used to conclude that everything in the rule set works as intended and those are the same leagues that didnt find any issues with Pilling On, something that Doubleskulls himself now feels is too powerful.

http://www.plasmoids.dk/bbowl/LRB6Stats.htm - these stats also put Necromantic as the best team in the game, and undead as the 4th best team anyone looking at that would have to say they are questionable.
koadah



Joined: Mar 30, 2005
Location: London, UK

Post   Posted: Jan 04, 2012 - 12:19 Reply with quote Back to top

Garion wrote:
koadah wrote:
Garion wrote:
I retire teams that enter the CPOMB zone for a reason. The game is stupidly boring once you enter it.


CPOMB zone is 1700+ and chaos do not become dominant until 1900+. Most of your teams get nowhere near that.


Yup 1700+ is the CPOMB zone, but I retire most teams that I have played 20+ games with around the 1500 - 1600 mark because CPOMB teams are quite common there as well and I would rather not face them every game or every other game. The game is just dull after this point for me anyway because of this ruleset and the way team development works.


Maybe I have just got lucky but I don't seem to draw many CPOMBers at 1500-1600.

Garion wrote:

Also yeah bladder is right quite a few of those teams were retired en masse about 2 or 3 months ago when i took a 2 month break from the game. But to say why does this all bother me is not on really. It bothers me because I dont want to min max/sweet spot and i dont want to play at a TV of 1600+ because of the way this rule set works. It bothers me because I can never happily develop teams anymore because i hate playing at a tv of 1600+.

But this thread isn't about why i retire teams. It is just asking why were CDs given access to Claw?


Min-Maxing/sweet spotting is not necessary as if you get too high a nice basher team will trim you down. Twisted Evil
So true, if you want to build a big side it is going to be frustrating. But then, how many big sides did you build in the LRB4 Box? Were you able to build any team after the Box effectively died?

I suppose that I am (perhaps unfairly) guessing that you would have complained just as bitterly about the old Box too. Wink

_________________
Image
CPOMB Nerfs - Open League kicks off Thursday 20th
Garion



Joined: Aug 19, 2009

Post   Posted: Jan 04, 2012 - 12:32 Reply with quote Back to top

I never complained about anything during lrb4, never had issues with fouling stalling or any of the common topics of that era.

I didn't play in the old box because everyone told me not too from the moment i joined. So dont know about that really.

As for building big sides. In Lrb4 i don't think i ever achieved it, I had one or too fairly good teams some nice zons, humans and Chaos Dwarves i think, but it was a hell of a lot harder to build teams then and a lot more rewarding and interesting.

But im not interested in building big sides, if i was i would play ranked. I would just like to play at all different TV ranges and get enjoyment from it like i used to. But now I find myself limited to a TV bracket of 1200 - 1600 where games are enjoyable. After that they are just dull now. imo
Display posts from previous:     
 Jump to:   
All times are GMT + 1 Hour
Post new topic   Reply to topic
View previous topic Log in to check your private messages View next topic
Powered by PNphpBB2 1.2 © 2003 PNphpBB Group
Credits