FUMBBL :: Online Blood Bowl League

Sp00keh

Joined: Dec 06, 2011

Posted: Feb 15, 2012 - 11:38

Ullakkomorko wrote:

Trying to keep your team lean and effective is not the same thing. Just imagine - disregarding your wife's or girlfriend's opinion for now - packing for a trip. You have to evaluate whether you can get by with only one pair of shoes or not. You might use the other pair but it's not worth the pain of having to lug around more stuff to the airport.

agreed, girls really should minmax their luggage better

Tarabaralla

Joined: Jul 24, 2010

Posted: Feb 15, 2012 - 12:13

Hitonagashi wrote:

I count everything in terms of "clawmb"(40 TV). Aka...second +ag on a skink: Am I going to use the +ag more than giving my opponent an extra clawmb is going to hurt me? Is having the backup in case it dies worth the extra attrition on my saurii?

What an obsession!

Did you really refused an ag5 skink?

Nelphine

Joined: Apr 01, 2011

Posted: Feb 15, 2012 - 12:18

but think about what agi 5 skink does for you - either you can make it a passing skink (and who are you going to pass to?), or you make it a dodging skink (in which case it is literally just as good as agi 4), or you make it a ball grabber (in which case, it's only better than agi 4 if there are tackle zones on the ball, in which case things are not looking good anyway)

So for the extra 40k, you give your opponent an extra clawmb, which allows him to short hand you in players, which is the only reason he can put tackle zones on the ball anyway, which was the only reason you bothered with an agi 5 skink in the first place. Thus, I would have to agree; don't bother with agi 5 skinks, unless you have someone good to pass to.

Hitonagashi

Joined: Apr 09, 2006

Posted: Feb 15, 2012 - 12:23

Tarabaralla wrote:

Hitonagashi wrote:

I count everything in terms of "clawmb"(40 TV). Aka...second +ag on a skink: Am I going to use the +ag more than giving my opponent an extra clawmb is going to hurt me? Is having the backup in case it dies worth the extra attrition on my saurii?

What an obsession!

Did you really refused an ag5 skink?

Nope.

I was more talking in terms of an extra +ag skink( as in 2x ag 4)...or I suppose a better example would have been 2 sidestep/DT skinks with rookie saurii.

The fact remains though, I sacked that legend because the team couldn't support it. I tried for 20 games to make a playable team with him in it, but the team was 1700 TV with him and my current legend saurus, and the rest 11 player rookies. Against a decent claw team at that TV, you get butchered.

To me, I classify skills into "core" and "support".

Skinks are always support (unless they have a +ag, then I might keep them as core, but starting to dislike that). Kroxigor skills above guard are support. Core are block, mighty blow, guard and tackle on saurii. Until I have a good core, support is wasted TV. Once I have a good core, I want as much support for it as I can get.

cameronhawkins

Joined: Aug 19, 2011

Posted: Feb 15, 2012 - 13:12

Hitonagashi wrote:

I would say one thing to cameronhawkins though...I prefer leader on a skink. If he dies, I'll buy another RR (keep the cash spare for it), and blodging saurii have better skills than leader.

I've thought about this point for a while.

My thinking is that Leader and Kick should both be on a player who is going to reasonable last the entire game, someone whose value you're not going to squander by desperately trying to protect them or keep them out of the fray. An AV9 Blodger is a pretty good bet. I try to give these skills to a back-up blitzer, who won't be put on the LOS anyway.

Personally, I would love to face a team with 1 RR and a Leader skink-- I would have that boy off the field quicker than you could say skinkjelly. A ClawPOMB tackler could do it even faster.

Kondor

Joined: Apr 04, 2008

Posted: Feb 15, 2012 - 13:54

Why, oh why, do so many people moan about efforts to keep TV low, or keep TV at a certain level, or utilize the c-pomb in the box? To me this is no different than those that fouled hard, heavy, and often in LRB4. As the game changes, you adjust your tactics. If your goal is to win games, you adjust to win. If your goal is to build a pretty team, or play in majors you play in ranked.

In the previous version, I toyed with a dwarf team with only linemen and blitzers. At that time, I did not have the patience for it. I have decided to try it again. This way, your linemen will skill more quickly and you will have a team full of sturdy linemen before you start facing these c-pombs. It will never happen, but you would have 9mb + 9guard for 360 tv. Add to that the skills for one ball handling blitzer and things are about perfect.

The scisors for that rock is tha amazon team build. 3 blitzers with some compination of MB/tackle/guard/PO/fend. 1 blitzer ball carrier with appropriate skills. 7 line women with wrestle/fend. Now these are much more fragile so you are likely to build nasty blitzers and have a couple of linewomen with skills.

And a word on those lizards. In order, I would consider Block/Guard/Fend/Break Tackle on the saurus. To me, the lizards should not get in a bashing match vs the C-pomb. Rather minimize it by playing an elfish game. MB to me is the support skill. Get your strength where you want it and only allow him one blitz per turn with no PO option. 6 saurus with those 4 skills ring in at 480 TV. Not bad.

shadow46x2

Joined: Nov 22, 2003

Posted: Feb 15, 2012 - 14:15

so basically..this is what blood bowl has dwindled to?...

a "walkthrough" on how to break the system and exploit flaws in the ruleset, instead of just playing and having fun?

no wonder so many people have quit playing...

--j

_________________

origami wrote:

There is no god but Nuffle, and Shadow is his prophet.

zakatan

Joined: May 17, 2008

Posted: Feb 15, 2012 - 14:21

it's easy to minimize your TV. You just need to fire all your players, and get rid of re-rolls and staff and there you go: 0 TV. Can't get lower than that.

_________________

Hitonagashi

Joined: Apr 09, 2006

Posted: Feb 15, 2012 - 14:26

cameronhawkins wrote:

Hitonagashi wrote:

I would say one thing to cameronhawkins though...I prefer leader on a skink. If he dies, I'll buy another RR (keep the cash spare for it), and blodging saurii have better skills than leader.

I've thought about this point for a while.

My thinking is that Leader and Kick should both be on a player who is going to reasonable last the entire game, someone whose value you're not going to squander by desperately trying to protect them or keep them out of the fray. An AV9 Blodger is a pretty good bet. I try to give these skills to a back-up blitzer, who won't be put on the LOS anyway.

Personally, I would love to face a team with 1 RR and a Leader skink-- I would have that boy off the field quicker than you could say skinkjelly. A ClawPOMB tackler could do it even faster.

If a clawmbpo tackler is hitting my leader skink, heck, if he's even exposed, I've already lost the game Wink

.

I wouldn't say exploit the ruleset Shadow. Chaos players can just play, build a team, and have fun in the Blackbox, everyone knows that! The rest of us mere mortals have to adapt to play in a TV matched environment.

If people don't like TV optimisation, and want to just play and skill a team, there's R and L just there waiting for you.

pythrr

Joined: Mar 07, 2006

Posted: Feb 15, 2012 - 15:02

Tarabaralla wrote:

Hitonagashi wrote:

I count everything in terms of "clawmb"(40 TV). Aka...second +ag on a skink: Am I going to use the +ag more than giving my opponent an extra clawmb is going to hurt me? Is having the backup in case it dies worth the extra attrition on my saurii?

What an obsession!

Did you really refused an ag5 skink?

#boring

Balle2000

Joined: Sep 25, 2008

Posted: Feb 15, 2012 - 15:37

shadow46x2 wrote:

so basically..this is what blood bowl has dwindled to?...

a "walkthrough" on how to break the system and exploit flaws in the ruleset, instead of just playing and having fun?

my thoughts exactly.

good fun to be had in League btw

PainState

Joined: Apr 04, 2007

Posted: Feb 15, 2012 - 15:53

shadow46x2 wrote:

a "walkthrough" on how to break the system and exploit flaws in the ruleset, instead of just playing and having fun?

I dont think TV minimization is a flaw in the system. It is a flaw on how coaches look at how matches are scheduled/arranged in the open divs on FUMBBL.

The manipulation of how matches are arranged is now in the open so to speak for everyone to see. The great thing about TS was the vast majority of coaches basically had no idea how it was calculated and just ignored it. Even though it did weigh heavily in the match making process, but it was subtle and not out in the open. TV is righ in your face all the time, everyone understands the TV system.

Here is my huge issue with minimization of TV.

1)playing with a 15 or 16 man team is an insurance policy for not getting shormanned on the field. Nothing can replace physical players on the pitch.

2)minimization of TV is nice for matchmaking purposes in the Box and on GF but once the pixels are lined up then who cares?

3)The idea that you can get an "easier" match up with a lower TV is bogus. Inless you are cherry picking or "gaming" the scheduler. So this is not an overall team build tactic but rather a coach tactic to manipulate how you get a match.

4)This idea that bench players are a waste of TV. Well maybe in the match making process they are. But once the game starts and your 5 man bench looks over and sees only 1 player in the other bench area. Well the plan of attack is simple. Short man the other team and lean. So the idea that fouling has been marginalised is also bogus. You have 5 guys in the bench, 4 of them have DP, You keep jamming that foul button until it breaks. Now your bench guys are not ho hum benchwarmers but contributing to your teams key to victory.

5)So your 16 man human squad takes on a 12 man squad. All things being roughly equal you are spoting the other team 200 TV. But that does not equal inducement money. All that means is that the 12 man squad is more lean in terms of skills. Probally has 2 or 3 uber guys with fodder. A coach who has skilled up a 16 man roster is probally a smart coach so he has a wide selection of skills on his players to account for allmost every scenario. So your blodge guys are not running around and not facing some tacklers as an example.

6)As a tournament coach and I watch the majors all the time. I think the case is starting to get made that a minimized TV team has a really rough road in a tournament setting. Sure he will be getting some inducement money to help out. But since you are running with a 12 or 13 man roster, 2 or less rerolls. All it takes is one bad CAS game and you are booted. Running with a 14+ man roster. Getting your TV up by having skills all across the board is a better set up for a tournament run.

7)If your goal for you team is to never enter a tournament. Beat your chest on your win/loss record in open games. Then minimizing your TV is probally a great tactic to "game" the match making process. But then again your team never is really competiting in the big picture. By playing in a tournament enviroment that the game rules were built for.

**EDIT** Thus the rise of Leagues popularity. Min/Max minimization is the path to destruction in a league torunament enviroment. Thus coaches are now gravitating to League were they can get out of the way of the coaches in the open divs who do this.

_________________
Comish of the:

Last edited by PainState on %b %15, %2012 - %16:%Feb; edited 1 time in total

uuni

Joined: Mar 12, 2010

Posted: Feb 15, 2012 - 15:57

I find that we have an interesting dilemma here.

A newbie (his words, not mine) asks a question about how to play better and win more - to be better at this competitive game. Instead of answering the question and helping the troubled newcomer the normally helpful crowd of wise old coaches moans about "the youth of these days".

Is someone getting old, or what is going on?

***

As per practical tips for the original poster: I find that many teams could fare as well as they do now with fewer rerolls. I find that 3 rerolls should be enough for almost everybody, perhaps sometimes 4. Many people take only 1 or 2 and Leader.

Also, you may want to consider, if the Apothecary is necessary for the first games. You will get 50k easier opponents if you don't have the Apo. If your whole team is sacrificable fresh players, mostly linos, is Apo really necessary.

These are the two most general piece of advice that I can come up with for the OP question.

Glad to have you with us, Good Luck & Have Fun!

Hitonagashi

Joined: Apr 09, 2006

Posted: Feb 15, 2012 - 15:59

Just as a point Painstate, generally agree, but the principle I'm using is to stay low to build a tournament ready team, then add the easy support skills (buy up RR's to 3-4, skill up some skinks quickly to ss/dt), expand the bench to 14 players once I've got the core that allows me to compete in a major in place.

You can run "casual" games at 1600-1800 TV, and then convert the same team into a reasonably competive 2-2.2k major team by buying 2 extra rr's and expanding your bench.

Aim your playstyle to your environment. If every game is about who has the best team for TV, then TV optimisation just makes sense. If you have to deal with wide inducement swings, then suddenly, ironing out those 20 TV inefficiencies isn't anywhere near as important.

_________________
http://www.calculateyour.tv - an easy way to work out specific team builds.

PainState

Joined: Apr 04, 2007

Posted: Feb 15, 2012 - 16:07

uuni wrote:

I find that we have an interesting dilemma here.

A newbie (his words, not mine) asks a question about how to play better and win more - to be better at this competitive game. Instead of answering the question and helping the troubled newcomer the normally helpful crowd of wise old coaches moans about "the youth of these days".

Is someone getting old, or what is going on?

***

As per practical tips for the original poster: I find that many teams could fare as well as they do now with fewer rerolls. I find that 3 rerolls should be enough for almost everybody, perhaps sometimes 4. Many people take only 1 or 2 and Leader.

Also, you may want to consider, if the Apothecary is necessary for the first games. You will get 50k easier opponents if you don't have the Apo. If your whole team is sacrificable fresh players, mostly linos, is Apo really necessary.

These are the two most general piece of advice that I can come up with for the OP question.

Glad to have you with us, Good Luck & Have Fun!

Hold on Tex!

The OP is not a newbie but rather a coach who has around 500 matches on FUMBBL and is new to FFB. So he is aware of how things work around here.

Is basic point was ideas to keep TV low in order to get easier games. Fine by me.

Sure there were some posts about the evils of this. But most of the responses were from coaches giving tips on how to accomplish this OR making the argument that the idea of minimization is the path to ruin in the long run.

Minimization is very bad for new coaches because it invokes the capricious nature of NUFFLE into the game more heavily. Nothing runs off new coaches more than NUFFLE and his capricious ways with the dice.

_________________
Comish of the: