Kondor
Joined: Apr 04, 2008
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 Posted:
Feb 15, 2012 - 16:49 |
 
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| shadow46x2 wrote: | so basically..this is what blood bowl has dwindled to?...
a "walkthrough" on how to break the system and exploit flaws in the ruleset, instead of just playing and having fun?
no wonder so many people have quit playing...
--j |
In my opinion this is still not true. By minmaxing or sweetspotting, you are not breaking the system. Neither are you exploiting flaws. You are building teams to be competitive in the Black Box.
If this becomes the norm, then you will have everyone on even ground. The cream will still rise to the top and the better coaches will continue to win more games than their opponents.
To me, this is a slower, more methodical way to build a good (and fun) team. For me, the fun from this game comes from the competition and interaction with others as you play.
Coaches can and always have chosen to build teams that may not win as many games but they enjoy using. I think this is where the division between the Box and Ranked lies. The Box was built to be the most competitive of divisions. Ranked, you get to pick and choose who you feel like playing. |
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WhatBall
Joined: Aug 21, 2008
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| Posted:
Feb 15, 2012 - 17:06 |
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Start playing the game and stop gaming the game.
It is a helluva lot more fun. |
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PainState
Joined: Apr 04, 2007
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| Posted:
Feb 15, 2012 - 17:18 |
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| Kondor wrote: | | For me, the fun from this game comes from the competition and interaction with others as you play. |
Iam right there with you. Although expecting interaction in the box is a false expectation. It is a suprise to find interaction because it is not the norm.
| Kondor wrote: | | The Box was built to be the most competitive of divisions. |
What? The box was originally built for these reasons.
1)Provide a scheduler
2)Allow you to click a button and get a match in 15 minutes. Makes it very very easy to find a match to play.
3)To molify the anti-cherry picker crowd. Which was very large pre Box days.
4)Christer thought this was cool and ran with it.
Now everything else about the Box is an intended or unintended consequence of the scheduler.
Intended things about the box
1)you can make what ever type of team you want and get matches
2)By using a scheduler it would make the games more competitive in the sense that it does not allow cherry picking. Not because the actual game is more compeitive but rather the human element was removed to stop cherry picking of match ups.
unintended things about the box
1)That the box actually destroyed coach interaction, hurt the social side of FUMBBL
2)Replaced cherry picking with min/max.
3)Spawned endless deabates of B VS R in pointless discussions of which div is better. And completly mutated the concept of competitive play. |
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Comish of the:  |
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Beerox
Joined: Feb 14, 2008
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| Posted:
Feb 15, 2012 - 21:15 |
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| shadow46x2 wrote: | so basically..this is what blood bowl has dwindled to?...
a "walkthrough" on how to break the system and exploit flaws in the ruleset, instead of just playing and having fun?
no wonder so many people have quit playing...
--j |
Answers to the above: 1) Yes 2) Yes 3) It's no mystery!
| zakatan wrote: | | it's easy to minimize your TV. You just need to fire all your players, and get rid of re-rolls and staff and there you go: 0 TV. Can't get lower than that. |
Can't cut the apoth though, last time I checked 
You may be stuck at 50 + FF. |
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plasmoid
Joined: Nov 03, 2009
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| Posted:
Feb 15, 2012 - 21:31 |
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| Quote: |
Look what lrb 6 has lead to - in a sad TV-matched environment
And bewail the state of woe.
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There. Fixed  |
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RandomOracle
Joined: Jan 11, 2004
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| Posted:
Feb 15, 2012 - 21:34 |
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| PainState wrote: |
unintended things about the box
1)That the box actually destroyed coach interaction, hurt the social side of FUMBBL
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I guess the box was also responsible for Christer's motherboard dying recently. |
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pizzamogul
Joined: Jun 13, 2005
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| Posted:
Feb 15, 2012 - 21:39 |
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The posts that have been on-topic have been pretty informative and interesting. |
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"Don't expect mercy."
-Woodstock |
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nexusvalhees
Joined: Oct 28, 2005
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| Posted:
Feb 15, 2012 - 22:42 |
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I can vouch for cutting apothecary mine have been utterly useless since I've came back and I'm probably going to rebuild all my teams again just to get rid of them. |
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At the end of the day it's not about who won or lost its about who's got the most Blood on their Boot
Remember folks if you don't go out of your way to kill good players AGING IS YOUR FAULT!! |
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Kondor
Joined: Apr 04, 2008
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| Posted:
Feb 15, 2012 - 22:52 |
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| PainState wrote: | | Kondor wrote: | | For me, the fun from this game comes from the competition and interaction with others as you play. |
Iam right there with you. Although expecting interaction in the box is a false expectation. It is a suprise to find interaction because it is not the norm.
| Kondor wrote: | | The Box was built to be the most competitive of divisions. |
What? The box was originally built for these reasons.
1)Provide a scheduler
2)Allow you to click a button and get a match in 15 minutes. Makes it very very easy to find a match to play.
3)To molify the anti-cherry picker crowd. Which was very large pre Box days.
4)Christer thought this was cool and ran with it.
Now everything else about the Box is an intended or unintended consequence of the scheduler.
Intended things about the box
1)you can make what ever type of team you want and get matches
2)By using a scheduler it would make the games more competitive in the sense that it does not allow cherry picking. Not because the actual game is more compeitive but rather the human element was removed to stop cherry picking of match ups.
unintended things about the box
1)That the box actually destroyed coach interaction, hurt the social side of FUMBBL
2)Replaced cherry picking with min/max.
3)Spawned endless deabates of B VS R in pointless discussions of which div is better. And completly mutated the concept of competitive play. |
I have never spoken to Christer so I do not know his intent. What I do know is that the box is billed as the most competitive division and not for the faint of heart.
I actually play both ranked and box. I enjoy both divisions and adapt my play and team style to the division. I do not have a preference in which division is better.
I agree with your positives to the box. I disagree to the negatives. To me minmaxing is not a negative as everyone can do it, and you have a good chance of running into another min-maxed team. Picking takes advantage of the noob coaches quite a bit more in my opinion. As for the social interaction. There is no reason for it to be worse in the box. It just comes down to the two people playing. |
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harvestmouse
Joined: May 13, 2007
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Feb 15, 2012 - 23:23 |
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| Kondor wrote: | | PainState wrote: | | Kondor wrote: | | For me, the fun from this game comes from the competition and interaction with others as you play. |
Iam right there with you. Although expecting interaction in the box is a false expectation. It is a suprise to find interaction because it is not the norm.
| Kondor wrote: | | The Box was built to be the most competitive of divisions. |
What? The box was originally built for these reasons.
1)Provide a scheduler
2)Allow you to click a button and get a match in 15 minutes. Makes it very very easy to find a match to play.
3)To molify the anti-cherry picker crowd. Which was very large pre Box days.
4)Christer thought this was cool and ran with it.
Now everything else about the Box is an intended or unintended consequence of the scheduler.
Intended things about the box
1)you can make what ever type of team you want and get matches
2)By using a scheduler it would make the games more competitive in the sense that it does not allow cherry picking. Not because the actual game is more compeitive but rather the human element was removed to stop cherry picking of match ups.
unintended things about the box
1)That the box actually destroyed coach interaction, hurt the social side of FUMBBL
2)Replaced cherry picking with min/max.
3)Spawned endless deabates of B VS R in pointless discussions of which div is better. And completly mutated the concept of competitive play. |
What I do know is that the box is billed as the most competitive division. |
Interesting, would you mine showing me where it says this?
Your opinion of what is fun, and what box is all about, is what keeps others away and those that don't to possibly leave the site, congratulations on that. |
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Hitonagashi
Joined: Apr 09, 2006
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| Posted:
Feb 16, 2012 - 01:30 |
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| Harvestmouse wrote: | | Interesting, would you mine showing me where it says this? |
| The add new team page which describes the divisions wrote: |
Blackbox (Rules)
This division is a scheduled match division, where participants are randomly given an opponent to play against on an hourly basis. This division is not for newcomers to the game.
Ranked (Rules)
The ranked division is the main competetive division of FUMBBL. A ranking system is in place and this is the division where the official tournaments will be held.
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Pretty easy to see how you can misinterpret that as the Box being the place where the hardcore players play, where R is for general competitive play.
If you want to "fix" the box, and stop minmaxing, ask Christer for a random matching division that has no TV matching, and uses exactly the same criteria as R does, but pairs valid matches randomly. If you are in a division that pairs by TV, it's hardly ruining the game when people try and get the best bang for their buck.
And yes, I'd love this, and I'd play in it at any TV. |
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harvestmouse
Joined: May 13, 2007
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Feb 16, 2012 - 02:16 |
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He's making the comment off of that? When one line below it states 'ranked is the main competitive division'?
I see his facts suffer from the same delusions as his opinions.
Your divisional conclusion 'that as the Box being the place where the hardcore players play, where R is for general competitive play.' I would say is pretty accurate, however bears no similarities to his.
What I'd like to see, is coaches showing respect to the site, opponents and division and stop trying to game the system. Instead of leaching whatever they can get, until theres nothing left, aka old box. |
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PainState
Joined: Apr 04, 2007
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| Posted:
Feb 16, 2012 - 02:50 |
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| harvestmouse wrote: | Interesting, would you mine showing me where it says this?
Your opinion of what is fun, and what box is all about, is what keeps others away and those that don't to possibly leave the site, congratulations on that. |
Christers intentions when he created the Box
Why play in the box talk
More what is box about talk
A nice thread on the grievances against the box
Page 7 of Black Box lets us see what it was like all the way back at its founding.
My opinion's of FUMBBL from my own personeal perspective has that much "weight" as to cause a massive opinion change about FUMBBL as to cause them to leave? really? Iam that improtant?
I would think that my opinion of what is fun about FUMBBL the vast majority would agree with. I dont see how my view is so radical that coaches think I have fallen off the "rocker" so to speak. |
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Comish of the:
Last edited by PainState on %b %16, %2012 - %02:%Feb; edited 2 times in total |
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Tarabaralla
Joined: Jul 24, 2010
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| Posted:
Feb 16, 2012 - 02:51 |
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About the topic: check for similar roster and try to understand if little differences makes them more competitive, it often helps me when it seems I'm getting too many "mismatches". (as an example, check some teams of the top-ranked coaches about those races)
Off topic arguments about B and R: Vampires will rule both of them! |
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Nelphine
Joined: Apr 01, 2011
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Feb 16, 2012 - 06:28 |
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Harvestmouse, I must say I'm on the side that Box is competitive (more so than Ranked). Whether this is intended or not, does not concern me. I believe myself to be a new-ish coach, and I found that Ranked has many of the issues that have been mentioned, and that Box had solutions to some of these issues (getting a game fast, and avoiding cherry-picking). So I started playing Box, and whereas my lizards (who are certainly not a well built team) in Ranked felt like a competitive team (I entered tournaments multiple times with delusions of grandeur with them), my teams in the Box (who had much better winning records than my lizards, especially my Nurgle before I lost the last few games in a row) did not feel competitive, and I think I only entered one tournament with a Box team.
Regardless of what is actually the case, the combination of clawpomb killing my pixels when I couldn't cherry pick my way to avoid it, PLUS the feeling that my teams were not actually competitive (especially my chaos dwarfs; the team had been created around the minotaur, but I felt that playing with the minotaur was ruining my chances of success) drove me not only to quit the Box, but to quit fumbbl altogether for the past year or so.
Now I'm back (yay Stunty Leeg!!) and I'm feeling like I want to play the box again since it's serious (and I still don't like the various issues with Ranked), and I'm trying to plan to avoid the 2 things that (combined) caused me to leave the box before; and so I feel that I must have teams that are more competitive than I had formally used, and so, just like the OP of this thread, I want to know how to be more competitive - and whether or not it's intended, for new coaches playing in the box, brutal TV management seems to be one extremely important facet for a coach attempting to be more competitive in the box.
So the point of this whole longwinded post is to say: It doesn't really matter why the box has become the way it is, nor does it matter whether that was the original intention. What matters is that new coaches who want to be competitive but perhaps don't have the skill of the best coaches, must turn to every means nescessary in order to feel competitive; and 'minmaxing' TV is one of those tools. |
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