Garion
Joined: Aug 19, 2009
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 Posted:
Apr 24, 2012 - 20:19 |
 
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| dode74 wrote: | The only thing you've cracked is your arse 
Pass Block does not REQUIRE that the range is measured at all. The statement within Pass Block merely places the act within the sequence of acts of a pass (see FAQ). Claiming that because the range is not measured that a Pass Block move cannot take place is the same as claiming that a Catch roll cannot take place for the same reason. Clearly a Catch roll CAN take place if the ball scatters to the relevant square. |
imi sorry but that is clearly bollocks. Cacthing rules specifically says you must attempt to Catch the ball if it enters a players square.
WE have taken exact quotes from the rules that proove PB cannopt be used. It cant be argued against anymore, now i have found the missing piece of the jogsaw on page 5. |
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dode74
Joined: Aug 14, 2009
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| Posted:
Apr 24, 2012 - 20:23 |
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You need to retake reading comprehension, mate.
The quote you are hanging your balls on here is the following:
"The move is made out of sequence, after the range has been measured, but before any interception attempts have been made."
Quite obviously that is stating WHEN the move is made, and not stating limitations on circumstances under which it can be made. Those limitations are stated quite clearly in the next sentence:
"A player may not make the move unless able to reach a legal destination and may not follow a route that would not allow them to reach a legal destination."
I'm waiting for someone from the ex-BBRC to comment on this, and anyone with an open mind and more interest in FUMBBL being right than themselves being right will do the same. |
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Vesikannu
Joined: Mar 06, 2011
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Apr 24, 2012 - 20:25 |
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| Garion wrote: |
Page 5 "The ruler is used to meaure the range"
Simple.
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My page 5 is about Blocking.
Besides, even if that's a from the rulebook, it's a description of the range ruler, not measuring the range. Using the ruler means you're measuring the range, but the sentence doesn't imply an equivalence, so it doesn't mean you're always using the ruler when you're measuring the range.
Compare the text from throwing the ball and the HMP skill description. The rules text says that the coach must measure the range using the range ruler, and details how you use it. HMP says that the range ruler is not used, but doesn't say anything about measuring the range.
In addition, in the FAQ, the 2nd step in the Passing Sequence is to declare the target and determine range modifier. No talk of rulers, no talk of measuring the range. In case of HMP the range modifier just happens to be 0 for all ranges. |
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Sigmar1
Joined: Aug 13, 2008
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Apr 24, 2012 - 20:26 |
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| PainState wrote: | | The only way you can use PB in your own turn is if it is triggered by your own player using Dump Off. Furthermore it even goes into detail about how this is a turnover for your team. Thus this is the exception to the first line which says you activate PB when your opponeet declares a pass. |
Umm, you use PB in your own turn when blocking/ blitzing an opposing player with the ball who has Dump Off. |
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Last edited by Sigmar1 on %b %24, %2012 - %20:%Apr; edited 1 time in total |
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PainState
Joined: Apr 04, 2007
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Apr 24, 2012 - 20:28 |
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| Sigmar1 wrote: |
The only way you can use PB in your own turn is if it is triggered by your own player using Dump Off. Furthermore it even goes into detail about how this is a turnover for your team. Thus this is the exception to the first line which says you activate PB when your opponeet declares a pass.
Umm, you use PB in your own turn when blocking/ blitzing an opposing player with the ball who has Dump Off. |
I stand corrected sirs. I will take my usual place on the back bench now.
But I do wonder...how much does a rules lawyer make in an hour. $100 or $200? Or is it a flat rate service? Is consultation free? |
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Garion
Joined: Aug 19, 2009
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| Posted:
Apr 24, 2012 - 20:30 |
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| Vesikannu wrote: | | Garion wrote: |
Page 5 "The ruler is used to meaure the range"
Simple.
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My page 5 is about Blocking.
Besides, even if that's a from the rulebook, it's a description of the range ruler, not measuring the range. Using the ruler means you're measuring the range, but the sentence doesn't imply an equivalence, so it doesn't mean you're always using the ruler when you're measuring the range.
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Page 5 in the most recent rule book CRP yes it is. In your's look for the range ruler part.
You are meant to use the range ruler for passing every time to "measure range".
HMP specfically says you do not use the range ruler, this is because you do not "measure range", which the range ruler description say is what it is for.
Since a player that has declared Pass Block may only move after "range is measured" you cannot move when HMP is used because this does not happen.
It is that simple. You cannot do one without the other. |
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dode74
Joined: Aug 14, 2009
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Apr 24, 2012 - 20:35 |
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| Quote: | | Since a player that has declared Pass Block may only move after "range is measured" |
This is where you're getting hung up. You're reading it as a limitation rather than as a description of the place of the Pass Block within the passing sequence.
Here I will use your logic: The PB rules also state that it can only be used "before any interception attempts are made". If no interception attempts are made then, according to the same logic, Pass Block cannot be used! And it is entirely possible for there to be no interception attempts possible after a Pass Block move has been made, as you can be in contact with the thrower or catcher but not closer to either of them than the other is (i.e. not in between them) and therefore unable to intercept.
So according to this if an intercept cannot be attempted on an otherwise ordinary pass then the Pass Block move cannot be made. Nonsense. |
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Garion
Joined: Aug 19, 2009
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| Posted:
Apr 24, 2012 - 20:37 |
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no that is incorrect, it is saying it is used before interception attempts are made, this means it preceeds it in the sequence. you do not declare interceptions until AFTER PB is used. So again your arguement is moot. |
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dode74
Joined: Aug 14, 2009
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| Posted:
Apr 24, 2012 - 20:38 |
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So in the same sentence it is a limitation from one clause and a sequencing from another? Tosh. Piffle, too. |
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PainState
Joined: Apr 04, 2007
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Apr 24, 2012 - 20:38 |
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I rise from the back bench mumbling about there is no diffrence between declaring a pass or a pass action since they are one and the same according the to rules on actions. Also fumbling with my CRP rules about how HMP is the one exception to the passing rules. Rereading the FAQ about the pass sequence and no mention of HMP is to be found, thus it is an exception not the rule. Then I sit back down defeated |
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Garion
Joined: Aug 19, 2009
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| Posted:
Apr 24, 2012 - 20:43 |
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Great so now Dode is finally reduced to speaking jibberish, I think we can finally agree that the correct course of action for PB and HMP (not talking about Dump off related stuff) is what, whatball, Painstate, Jimmy and I have said all along (sorry if anyone was missed out).
agreed? |
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dode74
Joined: Aug 14, 2009
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Apr 24, 2012 - 20:47 |
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No. You're cherrypicking that sentence and stating that one part of it is a limitation and the other is simply sequencing because that backs up what you're saying and you don't want to be wrong. Personally I would be happy to admit I'm wrong if the BBRC members say so, but if you try to explain it your way then the way it is written is internally inconsistent and relies on assumption.
Now instead of simply saying I'm talking gibberish how about you put together a rational and internally consistent argument? Shouting "I'm right" doesn't make you right |
Last edited by dode74 on %b %24, %2012 - %20:%Apr; edited 1 time in total |
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Wreckage
Joined: Aug 15, 2004
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| Posted:
Apr 24, 2012 - 20:48 |
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Just to bring this debate back up to the point of six pages ago.
| Nekross wrote: | Semantics are important for game mechanics and properly coding them.
| Rules on Hail Mary Pass (Passing) p 65 wrote: |
The player may throw the ball to any square on the playing pitch, no matter what the range: the range ruler is not used. Roll a D6 … Note that if you are lucky, the ball will scatter back into the target square! … |
No matter what the range: the range ruler is not used. This does not mean there is no range nor can there be a measurement. Nowhere does it say “ You don’t measure range! “No matter” translates as disregard. It conveys a message to disregard the range ruler measures and modifiers when using this skill. There is a huge difference between disregarding some metrics you have completed and not doing them at all!
The statement is to draw your attention away from the normal measure limits and range modifiers and towards the special exceptions rules which follow, regarding dice rolls as they appertain to HMP. (in order to resolve step 2)
| Rules p 77, FAQ wrote: | Q: What is the full Passing sequence when using all of the Extra Rules?
A: 1. Declare a Pass Action, move if desired, and then start the throw.
2. Declare target of the pass and determine range modifier.
3. Pass Blockers move if any are eligible to do so.
4. Check for interceptors and roll for possible interception.
5. Roll D6 to throw and subtract number of tackle zones,
Disturbing Presence and range modifiers on Thrower from roll.
6. If pass was fumbled, stop here. Otherwise continue.
7. If the throw is Accurate, go to step #8, otherwise scatter 3 times
(to represent where the ball will land not the ball bouncing.)
8. If the ball lands in a square with a player, determine modifiers
on Catch and roll for Catch, otherwise bounce the ball once
from the empty square the ball landed in. |
| Rules on Pass Block p 66 wrote: | | The move is made out of sequence, after the range has been measured, but before any interception attempts have been made.… A legal destination puts the player in a position to attempt an interception, an empty square that is the target of the pass, or with his tackle zone on the thrower or catcher |
Therefore the Pass block skill will trigger as intended in step 3: after we have measured and disregarded the range modifiers (step 2), but before interceptors (step 4).
In regards to a legal destination, the Pass-Blocker would be legal with a tackle zone on the thrower, and also the empty square that is the target of the pass. Reference has been given to the square from which the inaccurate ball will automatically miss and scatter 3 squares from. The CRP rules refer to this as the target square. Therefore it is a legal destination. |
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Garion
Joined: Aug 19, 2009
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| Posted:
Apr 24, 2012 - 20:54 |
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I dont understand how you think that supports PB being allowed, in fact you are actually backing my point up. To quote -
| Quote: | | No matter what the range: the range ruler is not used. This does not mean there is no range nor can there be a measurement. Nowhere does it say “ You don’t measure range! “No matter” translates as disregard |
So as you say, disregard the range. this means range does not get measured, and since the rules say you move a player that has declared PB AFTER range has been measure. You cannot do this, because there is no range measurement, range is ignored. |
Last edited by Garion on %b %24, %2012 - %20:%Apr; edited 1 time in total |
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dode74
Joined: Aug 14, 2009
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| Posted:
Apr 24, 2012 - 20:55 |
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And there you go again cherrypicking that sentence. Both clauses are sequencing.
| Quote: | | disregard the range. this means range does not get measured |
What? No it doesn't. Disregard the ogre behind you does not mean that the ogre does not exist. |
Last edited by dode74 on %b %24, %2012 - %20:%Apr; edited 1 time in total |
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