huff
Joined: Dec 19, 2009
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 Posted:
Feb 01, 2013 - 00:38 |
 
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Any roster that can have more than 1 Big Guy on it (Flings, Gabbos,Ogres,Pact) should be big guys that work with the team. ie No Loner on them. We are halfway there. And yes, most definitely the bigs, as well as the other team members should have Mutations access, quite silly and anti-thematic that they don't.
And they need all the chart access because its a starting all Lineman team. |
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ilpars
Joined: Nov 14, 2012
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Feb 01, 2013 - 01:12 |
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In general random mutations sound like a lot fun. |
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PaddyMick
Joined: Jan 03, 2012
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Feb 01, 2013 - 01:37 |
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For me, this is what Pact are all about (turns 5,6,7)
I score from what looks like an impossible position using all skills - a lineman with accurate, a lineman with guard, a dark elf with dodge, and a mutated lineman, surviving animosity along the way.
http://fumbbl.com/FUMBBL.php?page=match&id=3390739
Serious fun to be had (although I lost the game!)
From that game I skilled a big hand guy who will my defensive thrower/retriever. The team is all about bespoke positionals. |
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harvestmouse
Joined: May 13, 2007
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Feb 01, 2013 - 09:17 |
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| Dalfort wrote: | | PaddyMick wrote: | | plasmoid wrote: |
11 players, 6338 no skill: 550 TV
11 players, 6338 no skill: 660 TV
This cannot be defended either.
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how come? your paying for the access right?
if it's unbalanced at the start it will soon correct itself, and some starting teams have always been considered better than others |
I can accept you think that the teams shouldnt have been included, I like their inclusion because I always loved the Lowdown Ratz fluff (even the Dugout in-fighting rules), Slann were ALL lineman teams in 2ed and Pact was an attempt to justify the Chaos All-Stars mixed race roster, 2ed had rules for mixed race but like most other things in 2ed they were over complicated. Although I loved the wages rules from BB Companion, and Fanz, and Referees on the pitch. |
I agree with most of this. You can write something until you are blue in the face (Pact have the access they have to replicate the Allstars), but in 2 pages time everyone has forgotten or chipping in without reading the previous page......Maybe they should have made different types of Marauders.............but that isn't very chaosy. Sure they're underpriced a bit, but the problem isn't so much Pact but the rules (match making by TV and how certain combos stack).
Oh and book-keeping was far too complicated and tiresome by the time 2nd ed got to Companion. GWs biggest problem from those days was 'rules creep'.
BTW you're wrong about Slann. CRP Slann are an adaptation of the 2nd Ed roster. Right down to the Blitzer starting without block. I think you could be thinking of 1st Ed, but IIRC I don't remember Slann being in 1st Ed. |
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Chainsaw
Joined: Aug 31, 2005
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Feb 01, 2013 - 11:36 |
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It does seem to me that a simple +10k to marauders would silence an awful lot of the criticism.
(Although a lot of the problem does stem from blackbox matchmaking being blind to team age.) |
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ilpars
Joined: Nov 14, 2012
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Feb 01, 2013 - 12:11 |
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I have created a new pact team with the following rules for myself.
1. I will have as diverse team as possible. (Started with only 1 big guy because I want as much RR as possible at the beginning; but later will buy the other 2)
2. First advancements of players will be a mutation, ability advance or thick skull (it sounded like a mutation)
3. Every players first mutation will be different then other players (I even name players for their planned first mutation).
I wonder how the team will develop. It is in the League as I am still rookie and prefer to play at 145 leagues.  |
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Arktoris
Joined: Feb 16, 2004
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| Posted:
Feb 01, 2013 - 13:54 |
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| Beerox wrote: | | PurpleChest wrote: | 6338 GSMP 50k for Pact Marauder
6338 G 50K Human Lineman
This cannot be defended.
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This is indefensible, yes. The passing access as a cherry on top is laughable.
This team makes less sense than any. |
it's balanced off by the other differences.
CP reroll 70k
human rr 50k
humans get many core skills with bargain, CP gets no core skills at all. |
_________________
Hail to Manowar! The latest charioteer to DIE for bloodbowl! - Slain, by Ghor Oggaz |
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PaddyMick
Joined: Jan 03, 2012
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| Posted:
Feb 01, 2013 - 13:58 |
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| ilpars wrote: | I have created a new pact team with the following rules for myself.
1. I will have as diverse team as possible. (Started with only 1 big guy because I want as much RR as possible at the beginning; but later will buy the other 2)
2. First advancements of players will be a mutation, ability advance or thick skull (it sounded like a mutation)
3. Every players first mutation will be different then other players (I even name players for their planned first mutation).
I wonder how the team will develop. It is in the League as I am still rookie and prefer to play at 145 leagues. |
Good luck! Call them Teenage Mutant Ninja Pactmen |
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Scaramanga
Joined: May 01, 2012
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| Posted:
Feb 01, 2013 - 14:19 |
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| harvestmouse wrote: | | Dalfort wrote: | | PaddyMick wrote: | | plasmoid wrote: |
11 players, 6338 no skill: 550 TV
11 players, 6338 no skill: 660 TV
This cannot be defended either.
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how come? your paying for the access right?
if it's unbalanced at the start it will soon correct itself, and some starting teams have always been considered better than others |
I can accept you think that the teams shouldnt have been included, I like their inclusion because I always loved the Lowdown Ratz fluff (even the Dugout in-fighting rules), Slann were ALL lineman teams in 2ed and Pact was an attempt to justify the Chaos All-Stars mixed race roster, 2ed had rules for mixed race but like most other things in 2ed they were over complicated. Although I loved the wages rules from BB Companion, and Fanz, and Referees on the pitch. |
I agree with most of this. You can write something until you are blue in the face (Pact have the access they have to replicate the Allstars), but in 2 pages time everyone has forgotten or chipping in without reading the previous page......Maybe they should have made different types of Marauders.............but that isn't very chaosy. Sure they're underpriced a bit, but the problem isn't so much Pact but the rules (match making by TV and how certain combos stack).
Oh and book-keeping was far too complicated and tiresome by the time 2nd ed got to Companion. GWs biggest problem from those days was 'rules creep'.
BTW you're wrong about Slann. CRP Slann are an adaptation of the 2nd Ed roster. Right down to the Blitzer starting without block. I think you could be thinking of 1st Ed, but IIRC I don't remember Slann being in 1st Ed. |
Slann was in 1st edition( with half-orcs  ) Crp slann is a replica of 2nd edit.
Chaos pact like underworld was here for the fluff and the fun ( blood bowl is not TV formula and spiraling expense, it's random mutations and temporal instability ). |
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harvestmouse
Joined: May 13, 2007
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Feb 01, 2013 - 14:20 |
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Thinking a little, a nice fun house rule for pact is to randomly give each Marauder different access when you buy him.
For example, roll on the table below 3 times (reroll duplicates) to find his access.
2-5 General
6-7 Strength
8-9 Mutations
10-11 Pass
12 Agility
That would make for an interesting roster. Playing off that although similar, marauders develop differently as they choose their life paths. Which kind of fits in with Marauder warhammer fluff. |
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ilpars
Joined: Nov 14, 2012
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Feb 01, 2013 - 16:01 |
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+ more extended mutation list with random mutations for all. |
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harvestmouse
Joined: May 13, 2007
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Feb 01, 2013 - 16:31 |
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Part of the 2nd ed random mutations thing was that they weren't all good. Most were good to get, a few were totally negative and some had benefits and .......nonbenefits.
As an example: Obesity. +1 ST, +1AV -1MA and can never GFI. |
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Mr_Foulscumm
Joined: Mar 05, 2005
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| Posted:
Feb 01, 2013 - 16:36 |
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| Arktoris wrote: | | Beerox wrote: | | PurpleChest wrote: | 6338 GSMP 50k for Pact Marauder
6338 G 50K Human Lineman
This cannot be defended.
...
|
This is indefensible, yes. The passing access as a cherry on top is laughable.
This team makes less sense than any. |
it's balanced off by the other differences.
CP reroll 70k
human rr 50k
humans get many core skills with bargain, CP gets no core skills at all. |
Aye, but Pact start with an AG4 player.
And the reroll cost is a minimal expense, how many RRs do you really need and how many do you end up buying over time? That's what? 2 in B and maybe 4 in Ranked? Between 40 and 80k spread over 11 players... yeah that's a huge price increase.
It doesn't pan out.
They could have spread the skill access around the team, so that if you wanted Passing skills you had to pick one player, you wanted S you had to pick Big Guys etc. But no, they just load the linemen up with access to all the skills they'll need.
This smells like poor team design. |
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Everybody's favorite coach on FUMBBL |
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SunDevil
Joined: Dec 13, 2010
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Feb 01, 2013 - 17:25 |
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1. I don't think we can remove Loner from the Pact Bigs. The Stunty Bigs get that removed (well, 2 of them did - not the Goblin Trolls!) because they are STUNTY teams, not because they have more than one Big! A Stunty team has a truckload of problems (which is why we love them) to make up for non-Loner Bigs - you can't give a team of 3ST GSMP-access Marauders some non-Loner Bigs. Just can't. It's crazy talk.
2. The Pact team is not poorly designed, imho, as the design both replicates the intended source material (the All-Stars) and allows for some creative, fun gameplay. The problem is players have broken the holy hell out of the roster and that is on them, not the roster. Should we tweak it to prevent abuse? Possibly. But individual player's lack of creativity is not a fault of the team.
Foulscumm - teams are made to be balanced within themselves. You cannot compare Humans and Pact unless you go through both rosters with a finetooth comb. Marauders are incredible for a Human Lineman's 50k cost, sure. RR costs have already been brought up but the main thing is those "terrible" Human Linos get Blocking Blitzers, Dodging Catchers, Passing Throwers and still get a good Ogre. The Marauders get a ton of Animosity, some 7-AV targets and a trio of Bigs who don't listen half the time. They simply must pull more weight on their roster than the Human Linos.
We agree that the Pact roster needs tweaking! I'd love to see more creative teams, at least more teams who took ALL 6 Renegades.
I would love to give the bigs M access on normal rolls but that might be too good. I could see the Marauders losing S access but keeping M.
What about instead of 0-16 Marauders we had
0-4 Marauder 6338 Extra Arms
0-4 Marauder 6338 Two Heads
0-4 Marauder 6338 Prehensile Tail
0-4 Marauder 6338 Big Hand
Make them all 60k or 70k? Something that shows the mutations have already begun and does not lend itself so much to auto-CLAWPOMB abuse.
Just a suggestion! Locally, no Pact coach takes the team without all 6 Renegades. That won't work everywhere of course. Talking about Blackbox is a whole other can of Snotlings! That place is a microcosm of some BB-related game and I agree 100% with whoever said those games cannot be looked at seriously for data purposes since it does not factor in team age but rather raw TV. Too much abuse leaves no room for the beutiful spirit of the game best shown in leagues (imho). |
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Mr_Foulscumm
Joined: Mar 05, 2005
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| Posted:
Feb 01, 2013 - 21:06 |
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| SunDevil wrote: |
2. The Pact team is not poorly designed, imho, as the design both replicates the intended source material (the All-Stars) and allows for some creative, fun gameplay. The problem is players have broken the holy hell out of the roster and that is on them, not the roster. Should we tweak it to prevent abuse? Possibly. But individual player's lack of creativity is not a fault of the team. |
Good intentions isn't the same good team design.
| SunDevil wrote: |
Foulscumm - teams are made to be balanced within themselves. You cannot compare Humans and Pact unless you go through both rosters with a finetooth comb. Marauders are incredible for a Human Lineman's 50k cost, sure. RR costs have already been brought up but the main thing is those "terrible" Human Linos get Blocking Blitzers, Dodging Catchers, Passing Throwers and still get a good Ogre. The Marauders get a ton of Animosity, some 7-AV targets and a trio of Bigs who don't listen half the time. They simply must pull more weight on their roster than the Human Linos.
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What does "teams are made to be balanced within themselves" that even mean? I hear it being thrown around a lot, but quite frankly it doesn't make sense. Teams don't exist in a vacuum. You can't have a team be balanced within themselves without seeing how they stack up compared to the rest of the races.
A couple of quick notes regarding your argument:
Humans also have ST2 AV7 players to aim.
The part about CP having a ton of animosity is nonsense. Any sensible coach will have 1 player with animosity and it's not a huge drawback with AG4.
Trio of big guys? What? Why would anyone ever run all 3?
Honestly... you can't see how this team design is pants?  |
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