BadMrMojo
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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 Posted:
Apr 20, 2004 - 19:15 |
 
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| DeMoorck wrote: | "A vote on this subject would've been nice, because we can see now that many people dislike the changes."
...But, in the spirit of fumbbl, things have been decided for us. |
You decide whether or not to play. You decide what teams to play. You decide who to play. You decide what divisions to play in.
What on earth can you possibly complain about? That the divisions aren't named the way you'd like? If you want to play LRB only, play in Ranked - and either pay attention to the Ranking or don't... that's up to you.
If you're concerned about the +/- 40 TS rule and are one of the throng who moan and wail and gnash their teeth about how broken TS is, then you're trying to play games that are unbalanced - which is explicitly against the rules that you agreed to when signing up.
Whether or not you like TS, I think we can all agree that anyone who is playing down 40 points worth is playing down. The details are debateable, of course and the actual values and their merits can be (and have been) argued for hours on end but look at the actual result of the rule:
You can't play a team which is significantly weaker or stronger than your team.
That's something that you've agreed to abide by when joining, so quit complaining about it.
(for the record, I don't care for the +/- 40 rule either. I think it's excessively cumbersome. The reasons I'll defend it, however, are two-fold. 1) It's Christer's site and he can run it how he sees fit. 2) It just doesn't really affect me because I try to play by the rules that I agreed to.)
So what else about the changes offend you so? Just that you weren't personally consulted amongst the 14,000 active coaches? |
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Calador
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
Apr 20, 2004 - 19:29 |
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You are putting words into another mans mouth there BadMrMojo.
DeMoorcks post was an addition to my post, and all it says is that things are being
decided for us. The recent changes could've been voted on, and I think they should.
It's not about the +/-40 rule, it's not about TS being broken... It's about having
atleast some minor influence.
And to answer your 2 points... 1: Yes, it's Christers server... or is it ? Wasn't that
server paid for with money that fumbbl-coaches donated ?
2. I too play by the rules I agreed to, but the current rules sure as hell aren't the
rules I agreed to when I joined.
14000 active coaches... Why use a fictive number when replying ? at time of writing
this post, there were 9228 coaches on fumbbl.
It would simply be nice to have had a poll instead of having these changes forced
upon us. |
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BadMrMojo
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
Apr 20, 2004 - 19:51 |
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Ok, first of all, I quoted an entire message... No putting of words there, simply pointing to the post I was addressing. It's not even remotely out of context if anyone's reading the thread.
I am glad that you at least clarified your grievance. You feel as though every single one of the 9228 (not my fictitious hyperbole of 14,000, which was simply a made-up number to approximate the many people who play here) should get an equal say in how the site should be run. To move onto your next paragraph, you feel this is justified because some people have donated to help maintain the server and help cover hosting costs.
Is this correct? If not, please let me know and ignore the following paragraph or two.
If that is your assertion, then bollocks. You donate money to help an animal shelter and you expect to have veto power over adoptions? Of course not. Do you suddenly own 1/500,000th (another one of those hyperboles) of each and every dog and cat which stayed there during that month? No. A donation is not a stock purchase. You are not part of a conglomerate which owns the Linux machine in Christer's home office. You're a responsible, respectable user of that server who voluntarily gave Christer funds to help provide a free service on his equipment.
Do you honestly believe that Christer, Grum and Klipp sat together in a small, dark, smoky room with no windows to discuss how they could inflict their own evil preferences upon thousands of unwilling subjects or do you think that perhaps this was all a reaction to comments, complaints, notes, opinions, messages, emails, missives and other assorted correspondence with and from the user community as a whole. Just because you were not consulted does not mean that this came completely out of the blue and for no apparent reason. Scan through the FUMBBL Ideas and Bug Reports for a quick moment and see how many requests, complaints, suggestions and just plain whines there were. Maybe not from you but from the community as a whole.
This is a small handful of people trying to address the desires of many - including themselves. Cut them some slack and consider that maybe the loudest contingent is not necessarily the largest or even the most important. This is not a democracy. You signed up to enjoy the fruits of a lot of people's labors and you have the audacity to complain that the people who actually did all this for you (and approximately 9,227 other people just like you) don't go out of their way enough to accomodate you? That's some balls. If you don't like the rules changes, don't play or play in Unranked where they don't really affect you.
</rant>
Ok, now if that was NOT what you meant, then please do tell and I'll try to address that. |
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Tor_AlKir
Joined: Oct 10, 2003
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| Posted:
Apr 20, 2004 - 20:00 |
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1) Unless you control the domain name and the machine that acts as this site's server is in your bedroom, you have no decision making role whatsoever. Making a donation to help belay the costs of running the site is quite admirable and well appreciated, yet does not entitle the donator to any sort of ownership unless stated by the rightfull owner of the site and server.
2) Christer progresses the site as he sees fit. If you dont care about your coach ranking then there is no reason to leave [R], because winning or losing doesnt matter to you right? You're in if for the team progression. I find it hard to believe that a coach would except a game from a top ten coach with a team 30 TR/TS points above his simply becasue the outcome of the game will not affect his coach's rating. I would even venture to guess that you can count the coaches that arent here to win on a beastman's foot. |
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Calador
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
Apr 20, 2004 - 20:04 |
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What is so wrong about wanting to just keep the old Open league, and still have the option
of not being ranked ?
Why is it so necessary to have the main division ranked ?
Why is it so hard to make a poll about such a big change ?
I appreciate the work the admins have put into this site, but that shouldn't mean that I have
to sit back without commenting on what they do, does it ?
As a member of this community I feel I have a right to express my feelings about certain
subjects, and this is one of them. |
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BadMrMojo
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
Apr 20, 2004 - 20:17 |
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(note, I'm not trying to take this out of context by breaking up your quote, just trying to address everything.
| Calador wrote: | | What is so wrong about wanting to just keep the old Open league, and still have the option of not being ranked ?. |
Absolutely nothing. If you don't care about ranking, then just play in Ranked and don't look. If you care and just want a single team to not count, play it in Unranked against LRB teams and you have the same thing. If you're anal enough about it to bother, check those team's records and see if they played against Non-LRB teams and you're getting pretty close to exactly what you just asked for. In short, nothing is wrong about that. Go ahead and do it instead of complaining about it.
| Calador wrote: | | Why is it so necessary to have the main division ranked?. |
It's not necessary. Then again, neither is playing. Christer has said that he likes ranking and wanted to have a 'Major League' (my own interpretation and name) where people play ranked games in an LRB environment.
| Calador wrote: | | Why is it so hard to make a poll about such a big change?. |
It's not. Check the current poll and the past several. Interpreting that data and applying it to everyone - even those who didn't vote - is hard, however. We are, as of when you checked the number of active coaches, 9,228 cats just waiting to be herded. I pity the fool...
| Calador wrote: | I appreciate the work the admins have put into this site, but that shouldn't mean that I have to sit back without commenting on what they do, does it?.
As a member of this community I feel I have a right to express my feelings about certain subjects, and this is one of them. |
You have a right to say whatever you wish so long as it's not illegal, fraudulent or against the terms that you have agreed to. Just be prepared for someone to stand up and comment on what you have to say as well. Nothing I say is official (with the arguable exception of team and image approval matters) or even really matters in any way. It's just my opinion.
I'm exercising that same right. We can both express opinions about it until the cows come home but dictating policy is the exclusive right of the admins. |
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BloodRunners
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
Apr 20, 2004 - 20:22 |
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You guys make me laugh. The facts are the this whole thing belongs to christer, yes. And he built it for his own reasons, yes. And because we donate, we are not part owners, yes. But where would fumbbl be without the players??? Donate, ownership, stocks, all just odd based arguments. WE ARE THE PLAYERS, simply put, we are the customers to Christers, Skyjunkies, and others hard work. We don't pay a fee or provide any compesation, but we are customers none the less. We are the reason the sight is what it is today. Oh yes, they built it, they did all the work. But if nobody plays, the sight is nothing more than a personal programming project. That is why it irks me to here people in power suggest "IF YOU DON"T LIKE IT. DON"T PLAY" One person quitting isn't going to make a difference, but I have always believed, that if you don't care about one customer, than you really don't care about customers as a whole. Many of you have inflated self worth on this sight. That is mostly because its easier to tell someone off in print than to their face, but also, you feel as though you are providing a free service to us and we should kiss your arse for it. Look at it from a differnect perspective. If not the 9000+ of us, its just you playing Grumbledook and christer over and over again. The chief aim of any service organization is to please their customers, no I think its not "SOME BALLS" to expect that our opinion should matter. I would love to have seen a poll, or a discussion thread before the changes. At least then it wouldn't have been out of the blue to us. Just because it was discussed at length among the fumbbl elite, does not make it any less out of the blue for us fumbbl players.
Please don't go an post a big rant about customers and this being a free sight. The exchange of money is not required to form a customer relationship. The simple and main points to this arguement are, we the players are important. Without us, the sight is nothing. It is not audacity or SOME BALLS to expect our opinions matter. And please respect us as customers to your sight, tell Grumbledook to stop belittling people who have Noob questions, Tell MrMojo and others to stop suggesting "IF WE DON"T LIKE IT DON"T PLAY" and please let Christer now, we love his work, but his work has grown beyond his ownership. We are all very much a part of fumbbl and ANY choice that is made affects us all. There is absolutely no reason besides pride to not seek the opinions of the population before making changes. |
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Tor_AlKir
Joined: Oct 10, 2003
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| Posted:
Apr 20, 2004 - 20:38 |
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Let the people who want to win and play to win play others that want to win and play to win. I love the game as much as anyone else. Semi-uneven matches between coach ranking/TR n TS is going to happen in both divisions. This simply lets people know that if you are in [R], come ready to play and play to win. Your opponent certainly is. |
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Mnemon
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
Apr 20, 2004 - 20:49 |
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Bloodrunners, nobody stops you from making a page that follows the ideals of what you would like to see. Christer made FUMBBL the way he liked it to be, and I am fairly certain in the long run it doesn't matter to him if there are 300 or 9.000 people playing - as long as he can get the one or the other game in his own league sometime.
Appart from that, yes your opinions matter. Read up on all the discussion that went on before. People were unhappy that the admins took action on a rule that has been there since quite a while - namely that unbalanced games are not supposed to happen in the competitive, ranked part of the league. So the 40 TS difference rule was introduced. Now people were unhappy about that as well, and Tourney was changed to a general unranked division where that automatical balance is not enforced. I don't see how you can claim _none_ of the community feedback has been listened to.
Now you have a _ranked_ league that enforces balanced games (which I am fairly certain is a good thing ... if you are interested in playing competitive you probably like to know the other people don't get any advantages through all too easy games). If you don't care about ranking you still can simply ignore it and play in that league as long as you play balanced games - if you wouldn't play balanced games you'd shift the fairness for those that DO care about ranking. For all other wild purposes there is unranked league. Does it really matter that much where the spps of a team come from if the only contact you will have with that coach and that team is during the match you play?
-Mnemon |
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BadMrMojo
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
Apr 20, 2004 - 21:21 |
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| BloodRunners wrote: | | ...simply put, we are the customers to Christers, Skyjunkies, and others hard work. We don't pay a fee or provide any compesation, but we are customers none the less. |
 (Yes, I know what you meant. Just thought it was a funny line)
I wholeheartedly agree with the premise behind a lot of what you are saying. I've simply come to a few different conclusions.
I think the paranoia of "the FUMBBL elite" is a little overdone. Please check above for my "dark, smoky room with no windows" response. I was just as surprised to see "bb lfg -ru" as anyone else. I agree that the thousands of people playing is the primary reason that FUMBBL is so great. I also think that the constant complaining, commenting and more than a few sincere requests in chat, on the board and in news and poll comments are exactly what prompted the changes.
Yeah, everyone did have a say and they said a whole lot. If you don't care for the result, then take refuge in the old saying, "Nothing good was ever created by a committee."
Now, I bet you're all about to say, "But that's not what I was asking for and only one or two people actually decided upon and made the changes!" Am I close?
Well... yeah. That's the only way things get done. The thing that kills me is the people endlessly complaining that it was done for them - particularly when none of them ever had the time, knowledge, ability, talent, vision, funding, etc... to just do it themselves.
Once again, I'm not some secret shadowy enforcer of some private circle-jerk. That's just plain paranoid. I've just been here a while, just like yourself, and I've been asked to help out. I look at team names to see if they have the ever-popular players "1", "2", "3", etc... Is that such a secretive power that it frightens you? I also help maintain the User Guide. You know, that thing that everyone can write in if they have the time, knowledge, ability, talent, etc... Is that some secret source of power and privilege? Well, no. You could go in there right now and write over every single thing I have put in there.
"Look upon my works, ye mighty and despair."
I'm not trying to drive everyone away through customer service. Besides, even with your analogy, they're not my customers. If someone is showing a woeful lack of gratitude, however, I am more than happy to do my best to make them feel like a shameful ingrate. That's not an official (or unofficial) duty, just my own sense of fairness. |
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Condensed Guide for Newbies |
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Mr-Klipp
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
Apr 20, 2004 - 22:12 |
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First off, the actual changes were very minor.
Opting out of ranking was removed as an option.
That's it.
Other than that, it was just changing names. Why was it removed, why couldn't we just leave it?
Simple. It never really worked properly.
We originally added the ability to opt out of ranking so that those who didn't want to participate in the ranking system had the option not to. This purpose is now served by the unranked division. More importantly, it never really worked well anyway.
We went through several variations on the system, but unranked teams affect the ranking system in a way that makes the results less meaningfull. In short, allowing unranked teams to play ranked teams does not work.
Now, to address your point that this was somehow against the will of the community, I'll refer you to a poll someone posted just after the changes were made public: http://fumbbl.com/index.php?name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=2422
Only 14% of those responding thought the changes were bad. However, those who don't like it are very, very vocal about it.
The final breakdown:
Ranking was broken by opting out. We tried numerous soultions to fix it, they didn't work. The only way to have a meaningfull ranking system was to allow only ranked games, so that is what was done for the Ranked divison.
Don't like ranking? Don't play in that division or play there and ignore the score presented. The change was necessary to make ranking work properly and will not be changing back. |
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Mully
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
Apr 20, 2004 - 22:45 |
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| Quote: |
Why is it so necessary to have the main division ranked ?
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Calador - I think you are looking at it the wrong way. Try this view for size. You are only allowed 5 ranked teams ("R") but you are allowed 15 Unranked teams ("U"). So isn't the <b>main</b> division "unranked". Clearly now that Div-T restrictions are gone, there will eventually be more "U" teams than "R" teams.
So relax and just wait for all those new "U" teams to be created and play them.
(I am so wise)
Separately I have a quesiton for Christer/Klipp and hope they spot it here.
Previously Div-T teams were the only ones that could play the same team twice in a row. Will Div-U teams be able to do that? And if not, what should we do if we have a league and the 1st round playoff opponent happens to be the same team they just played in the regular season?
Thanks - Mully |
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Mr-Klipp
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
Apr 20, 2004 - 23:16 |
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DivT became Unranked, so pretty much anything that used to apply in the tournament division now applies in the Unranked divsion. |
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Ash
Joined: Feb 03, 2004
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| Posted:
Apr 27, 2004 - 01:10 |
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sorry but i think it s better to play to win than to play to bash the opponement's team... if you want to bash the opponement play a game like starcraft... |
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EvolveToAnarchism
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
Mar 10, 2006 - 04:31 |
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Come along with me as I step into my time machine and revisit the things that most scared some people almost 2 years ago.
Enjoy the memories and wondrous prognostications.
As Always,
Evolve To Anarchism
Open disappears |
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Ignorance is Strength quis custodiet ipsos custodes As Always, Evolve To Anarchism |
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