Garion
Joined: Aug 19, 2009
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 Posted:
Feb 19, 2014 - 21:19 |
 
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| gamelsetlmatch wrote: | | 2 Assasins? Weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee! |
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garyt1
Joined: Mar 12, 2011
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| Posted:
Feb 19, 2014 - 21:26 |
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| Duder wrote: | Here is a link to my stunty racial records for my point of view on team strength.
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This link just shows that from your matches skinks are way out in front, followed by Cheaters and Forest goblins. Then squigs in 4th.
I always found forest gobbos an extremely strong side. |
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JackassRampant
Joined: Feb 26, 2011
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Feb 19, 2014 - 22:37 |
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I may be a little behind on reading, but I'd like to submit that Loner is too nasty on a 0-4 position. In fact, giving the Squigs Loner is barely a nerf, because the thing that makes the team (and Cheaters) so good is the Herders. Can Squig Herder teams pay more for re-rolls and/or see a nerf to the Hoppers instead? The problem is not that the team is insufficiently dicey, but it is too good at the high end.
I'd suggest:
Hoppers: lose Pro, -10k.
plus EITHER
Herders: -1 MA
OR
Re-Rolls: 70k
OR
Herders: 45k, Re-Rolls: 60k
For Cheaters, I'd suggest making the Goblins 45k.
Also, Forest Gobs are way OP, Skinks are marginally OP, and Pygmies are a little weak (ST2 and no Dodge sucks bad). |
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Last edited by JackassRampant on %b %19, %2014 - %22:%Feb; edited 2 times in total |
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Craftnburn
Joined: Jul 29, 2005
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Feb 19, 2014 - 22:39 |
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| Beerox wrote: | | A recent poll of Chaos Spawns indicated that 92% of them enjoy being marked by ST1 MA8 players who have a 50% chance of doing so for no effective purpose. |
lol. Well if you're not willing to use a RR to spring half your team... |
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Sigmar1
Joined: Aug 13, 2008
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Feb 19, 2014 - 23:57 |
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I'm totally behind the idea of increasing 6237 Goblins to 45k. In Stunty, that's a damn good stat line and 40k for it is too cheap. And although its not a huge change it would help even up both the Herder and Cheater rosters.
Reducing the Hopper mv to 5 would be good but I like the Pro skill on them. Removing Sprint and/or VLL would cut Squig/Hopper mobility a ton and perhaps make giving the Squigs Loner unnecessary (never really understood why they have Sprint to begin with). Loner Squigs would make them a bear to play with.
Another idea might be remove A access. Without easy access to Dodge and Jump up their effectivness would also be reduced although I can see how that would really hurt the Hoppers. |
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cameronhawkins
Joined: Aug 19, 2011
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Feb 20, 2014 - 01:14 |
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Here's me thoughts:
Loner on Squigs–– I agree with Azure–– I think this would make the player unusable, which would basically render the team unusable. Remember, a Squig can go wrong in many many ways: Bloodlust, Really Stupid, or (most debilitating) failing a block. Loner means that their actions will never be rerolled, since–– why try a terrible chance of a reroll on Really Stupid, when he might just bumble the block, anyway?
I'd also point out that in the last few rounds of changes, Squig Herders got buffs–– Strength access on both the Squigs and Hoppers, and Av8 on the Squigs. I was never really convinced they needed these things, since they were plenty good without.
Here are some changes that I think would be better:
• Increase reroll cost to 70k. This will increase TV to the point that opposing teams are getting a couple extra linemen or a Babe by comparison.
• Reduce Herder AV to 6. At 40K for 6237, Herders are already an amazing deal. Remember–– Vampires and Lizards work because they have strong positionals offset by crappy 'lineman'. Squigs currently have strong postionals and one of the best lineman in the leeg. I've played games against Squigs where the only Goblins in the casualty box were put there by Squigs. This change would ensure that Herders suffer attrition on both fronts, and encourages use of Squigs to take hits.
• Remove A access from the Squigs. This eliminates Dodge, Diving Tackle, Jump Up, and Sure Feet, all of which are excellent skill picks. Also, drop Squig AG down to 3, so that they dodge and leap a little less reliably.
• Remove S access from the Squigs. This eliminates Piling On and Guard, which makes them much less of killing machines.
• Remove S access from the Hoppers. This means that the Hoppers will no longer be skilled as killers, which should really be the Squig's job, anyway. Thus, it divides the team into baller/runner types, and hitters, rather than 6 killers. Note that this means the team will never have a reliable killer without 3 doubles–– the first 2 doubles on Hoppers will be used for Block/Tackle, whereas the Squigs will lose 1/6 blitzes to Really Stupid, and 1/6 potential Piles On to Bloodlust.
• Drop Squig AV to 6, add Regeneration. This will make Squigs more vulnerable when defending on the LOS, which they currently do too well. It also makes them more vulnerable to the stabby teams that they tend to dominate, and synergizes less with Piling On. It also fits better with the fluff, I think, since they don't wear armor, and fungus should rightfully regrow itself.
Loss of Pro on Hoppers–– I think this is probably fine. My suggestion would be that, if you do this, give them Very Long Legs as well, so that Hoppers might actually hop once in a while.
Chaos Spawn change–– I can definitely see the argument that this isn't truly a nerf. I think a better change would be simply to only allow Mutations on doubles rolls. They don't need Claw, since they have chainsaws to get around high-AV. The B&C suggestion is certainly intriguing, though... I also like how Really Stupid makes TTM more viable.
However, I think that the real problem is how much sheer damage the team can dish out. For example, consider how Frenzy (which is a definitely a mixed-blessing in the environment it was designed for) is amazing in this situation. The Chaos Spawn have St5, Frenzy, Mighty Blow, and Horns. Going up against teams with a weak LOS, that's 6 dice per block against a Stunty, with 2 Loner-free chainsaws, which are better than Block/Tackle at taking down most stunties. Against many opponents, 4 players out on the first turn is utterly normal. These guys are rookie-destroyers right out of the box. So, how about going more of the 'yeti' route? Start them with Claw instead of Mighty Blow, meaning they're more to combat big-guys than stunties. Taking their MA down to 4 would also hinder their blitzing ability, and make Frenzy more of a liability.
Head Carver gains Stab–– Sounds fine. Will rarely see use, I expect. (Could instead give him Chainsaw!)
Chaos Halfling price increase–– Hmm... I don't play as ChHalflings, but they already have to pay +5K when compared to similar players. The teams are different, of course (so perhaps the comparison is void) but at 40k, a Chaos Halfling would be a 33% price increase over a Pro Halfling, for nothing but potential–– and only 1 extra skill access to show for it. And not even the best skill access. Or the second best.
Also––as I've said oft before about Eshin–– a 40k price-tag for a Av6 player makes it very difficult to replace your losses unless you win almost all your games. I'd be more inclined to nerf the Spawn and then see if the team still needs such a blow.
Eshin changes–– Bah.. Eshin are not a weak team. They win tons. They are just unpopular. Partly this is because they aren't bashy, and partly it's because they're a tad boring. I don't think buffing them with stats is going to do much. You can do it–- it will make them even win more, but they won't be any more popular.
Eshin certainly aren't a team for newer players, but I can't believe that the stats suggest that they lose games. My latest Eshin team is 8/0/1. Whatball–– yours is 7/2/5, but 2 of of those losses were against other Eshin teams! When I look over other Eshin teams, I consistently see winning records–– and not just slightly–– dramatically. 9/0/3 is totally normal. I would be hard-pressed to find any experienced coach whose Eshin team has a losing record. There are few teams it's as easy to win with.
That said, I think that AV7 on the Assassins is probably good, just for the frustration factor of losing them so often. I also think that -5K on the price of the Adepts is good, since it allows them to replace their losses without continually using JM. However, I am loathe to see this team get stronger; I think the savings in TV from Adepts should be applied to the Assassin with a corresponding cost-increase.
If what you're after is to have people just play them more, then I think what you want is a player who increases their 'coolness' factor. For example, something like a little ninja who could sneak anywhere and 'assassinate' opposing players:
0-2 Elite Assassin
6346, Dodge, Stunty, Claw, Stab, No Hands, Foul Appearance
110k GAS/MP
This would give them a player that would make the team viable at high-TV, which they are currently very much not.
That's just an example of one thing you could do, though. There are many ways you could make the team more interesting, like blanket Foul Appearance, blanket Claw, giving the Stalkers Strip Ball, a Guard position, etc. But any such things should having corresponding cost increase, because they really are a very powerful team! |
Last edited by cameronhawkins on %b %20, %2014 - %01:%Feb; edited 2 times in total |
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cameronhawkins
Joined: Aug 19, 2011
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Feb 20, 2014 - 01:20 |
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Also, I'd just mention to those who seem to be confused on this point–– Squig Hoppers do not start with Very Long Legs. |
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JackassRampant
Joined: Feb 26, 2011
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Feb 20, 2014 - 01:46 |
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Hmmm… k, having read up, here's the Jackass prescription for Squig Herders
Option 1 (my real preference):
A) 60k RRs.
B) 45k Herders
C) Lose Sprint on Squigs and Hoppers
Option 2 (bigger nerf):
A) 70k RRs.
B) MA5 Sprint Herders (to account for their robes that sometimes trip them up in the open field), so whole team Sprints.
C)-AV on 60k Squigs and -MA on 100k Hoppers. Whole team is MA5, AV7.
I really like option 1. The lost Sprint means less crazy, but it also means less clutter on the roster. The added cost would mean that, say, the Muppets would have to cut something, either run just 14 men or only play with 4 re-rolls. But Option 2 has the upside that it cheapens the cost of fielding more crazy…. |
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Lude enixe, obliviscatur timor. |
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Craftnburn
Joined: Jul 29, 2005
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Feb 20, 2014 - 02:56 |
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I don't like reducing Squigs AG or removing VLL because it'll make them hop less, which is the OPPOSITE of what Squigs are supposed to be doing.
Taking Sprint off the Squigs is fine for me.
I'm also good with making Herders 5 2 3 7.
But what I really want to see is Right Stuff Squigs!! LOL! |
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Roland
Joined: May 12, 2004
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Feb 20, 2014 - 09:04 |
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if only squigs could land on top of, and swallow, players...  |
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harvestmouse
Joined: May 13, 2007
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Feb 21, 2014 - 17:32 |
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| harvestmouse wrote: | | Synn wrote: | | Craftnburn wrote: | | Eshin were overpowered once... (although they were always dull) |
And then came the Forrest gobbos who manage to out stab the assassins.
For another historical perspective, cflings used to have access to trolls. It was changed to only minos as a nerf so the minos and saws would have to share their blitz. Changing WA to either BH or RS would be a huge buff to coaches who know what they are doing.
__Synn |
Hmmmmmmm, well the Spawn doesn't have to have tents, I think. That is very nurgle.
What if.....it didn't have MB, but had claws (and RS). In this case, you would mostly choose the saw for blitzing unless it was a heavily armoured opponent where you could choose the spawn.
However giving the HC stab, means you'd blitz even less with the big guy. He also should lose frenzy.
However at some point, I'd like to see big guys added that split WA/Frenzy. This combos got a big boring. |
Rethinking this, I'm not sure this theory is correct. Sure this would certainly be the case in regular bowl, however in Stunty the line between an impact big guy (aka Snow Troll/ROgre/Mino) and a holding big guy (High AV + neg trait) isn't so big. In short they both do both jobs.
The impact players try to tie up opponents, and having tents helps there, and then block next turn. Having frenzy also helps.
I think in most situations, when available a saw is used for the blitzes, and the spawn hopes to tie players to him, to hit. Making him less of an impact player, may not buff the team, and certainly wouldn't majorly buff the team (if you had a holding big guy with that AV).
It's worth looking at anyway. So I'd say take away the Horns and Thick Skull, replace the WA with RS (so we have our first ever RS/Frenzy player) and see how he gets on. Maybe even replace the MB with claw too. Claw is a Spawn type skill.
Then add the 5k to the flings, and see what this does. Overall I see it as nerf.
Kind of agree about the Squigs. I don't really like the idea of the 3 neg traits either. Try tidying up the 2 profiles (so they match a bit better) by generally going with the lower number. Keep the high AG so they do leap ( or add VLL and definitely decrease the AV on them.
I still think Claw/PO + leap could be a fun combination though, instead of the mb.
Eshin, I think I'm on the right lines. With adding another positional, this gives the team an opportunity to increase it's TV as well. Which is a bit of a problem right now. |
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Synn
Joined: Dec 13, 2004
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Feb 21, 2014 - 17:40 |
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Squigs should go to 0-2...
Then give them the massive ball and chain squig (you know what I am talking about).
__Synn |
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WhatBall
Joined: Aug 21, 2008
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Feb 21, 2014 - 17:50 |
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| Synn wrote: | Squigs should go to 0-2...
Then give them the massive ball and chain squig (you know what I am talking about).
__Synn |
Thinking on it, BL + B&C would be a great combo, trying to get the player to end their turn near a thrall. |
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Garion
Joined: Aug 19, 2009
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| Posted:
Feb 21, 2014 - 17:55 |
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| WhatBall wrote: | | Synn wrote: | Squigs should go to 0-2...
Then give them the massive ball and chain squig (you know what I am talking about).
__Synn |
Thinking on it, BL + B&C would be a great combo, trying to get the player to end their turn near a thrall. |
sounds like bug central to me.... |
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Craftnburn
Joined: Jul 29, 2005
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Feb 21, 2014 - 18:23 |
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| Synn wrote: | Squigs should go to 0-2...
Then give them the massive ball and chain squig (you know what I am talking about).
__Synn |
I disagree, I love the wild Squig, but 0-2 doesn't sound much like a "herd"...
| WhatBall wrote: | | Thinking on it, BL + B&C would be a great combo, trying to get the player to end their turn near a thrall. |
I don't know what the new client would do, but interestingly enough the old client would allow you to move the B&C player according to normal movement rules if they failed their Bloodlust... So it was even more a reasonable idea than one might otherwise think. |
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