xyon
Joined: Apr 19, 2005
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 Posted:
Jun 09, 2014 - 21:27 |
 
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| Garion wrote: | | xyon wrote: | | Garion wrote: | | Bottom line is there should never be counters to counters. It's dumb. |
Dodge is a counter, and tackle is a counter to the counter, so lets get rid of tackle. |
I disagree dodge is a skill tackle is the counter. For there to be a counter to the counter you would need a skill that negates tackle so it doesn't knock down dodge players.
Which is obviously really dumb. |
Ok, so what makes juggernaught a counter to a counter, where tackle is not a counter to a counter? Let me use some of your logic against you.
Normally, you get pushed back when you get knocked down with a pow, and the player who knocks you down can normally follow up without spending any movement.
Fend prevents the follow up move, so it is not a counter, it is just a skill. Juggernaught cancels fend therefor juggernaught is a counter.
OR if you think that fend is a counter, and juggernaught is a counter to the counter, what is it that fend is countering? Fend counters the fact that normally you can follow up on a block or a blitz for free to stand in the square the player you knocked down was in. Normally this isnt harmful, but the skill piling on requires that you be standing next to the player in order to use it, this means you need to follow up if you push them forward.
SO what does fend do, does it counter piling on, or does it just counter the follow up in general? It doesnt say that it negates piling on, so by your logic a skill doesnt have to mention another skill in order to be considered a counter to that skill.
So, either juggernaught is a counter to a counter, AND tackle is a counter to a counter, or they are both just counters to a skill that would normally prevent the normal rules of the game from applying, you cant have it both ways.
I AM LOGIC AND SO CAN YOU. |
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Garion
Joined: Aug 19, 2009
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Jun 09, 2014 - 21:29 |
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No.
Pile on the skill, fend is the counter, juggs counters the counter.
Dodge is a skill, tackle is its counter, there is no counter to the counter.
Simples. |
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xyon
Joined: Apr 19, 2005
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| Posted:
Jun 09, 2014 - 21:34 |
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| Garion wrote: | No.
Pile on the skill, fend is the counter, juggs counters the counter.
Dodge is a skill, tackle is its counter, there is no counter to the counter.
Simples. |
Fend doesnt counter pile on, fend counters the normal rule of following up. If you knock someone down who has fend but not bloc and you use the 'block' skill to bring them down, you can still pile onto them.
Fend doesnt counter pile on, fend counters following up |
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Mr_Foulscumm
Joined: Mar 05, 2005
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Jun 09, 2014 - 21:39 |
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| xyon wrote: | | Garion wrote: | No.
Pile on the skill, fend is the counter, juggs counters the counter.
Dodge is a skill, tackle is its counter, there is no counter to the counter.
Simples. |
Fend doesnt counter pile on, fend counters the normal rule of following up. If you knock someone down who has fend but not bloc and you use the 'block' skill to bring them down, you can still pile onto them.
Fend doesnt counter pile on, fend counters following up |
No one picks fend before block. |
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xyon
Joined: Apr 19, 2005
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| Posted:
Jun 09, 2014 - 21:47 |
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| Mr_Foulscumm wrote: | | xyon wrote: | | Garion wrote: | No.
Pile on the skill, fend is the counter, juggs counters the counter.
Dodge is a skill, tackle is its counter, there is no counter to the counter.
Simples. |
Fend doesnt counter pile on, fend counters the normal rule of following up. If you knock someone down who has fend but not bloc and you use the 'block' skill to bring them down, you can still pile onto them.
Fend doesnt counter pile on, fend counters following up |
No one picks fend before block. |
maybe you dont...
Fend doesnt say 'cancels pile on', people might consider it a 'counter' to pile on, but they'd be half-wrong.
I would say that this game is full of 'counters' and has zero 'counter to a counter' skills. Unless you use different logic where this game is actually riddled with 'counter to a counter' skills. And then you use the flawed logic to only complain about 'one' counter-to-a-counter skill. |
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Mr_Foulscumm
Joined: Mar 05, 2005
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Jun 09, 2014 - 22:11 |
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They would also be half-right. |
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Everybody's favorite coach on FUMBBL |
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xyon
Joined: Apr 19, 2005
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| Posted:
Jun 09, 2014 - 22:29 |
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I just would like some logistical consistancy from any argument to either keep jugg the same, axe it, or change it. I used the logic behind 'counter to a counter' to claim that tackle should be removed if thats the reason why jugg should be removed.
If you consider fend to be a counter, what is it countering? The only thing it counters is being able to follow up a block, so it alters a normal rule of the game instead of specifically negating a skill.
Using this logic, any skill that changes/negates a normal rule in the game is a counter. I would then consider all skills that have some effect which is not a modifier to a roll or a reroll to be a counter-skill because they change a rule in the game.
So counter skills would be skills like block, dodge, fend, stand firm, sidestep, wrestle, strip ball, grab, frenzy, dauntless, leap, throw team mate, stunty, right stuff, jump up, guard, safe throw, etc..
Some of these counters are countered by skills like juggernaught (counters block, wrestle, fend, stand firm), tackle (counters dodge), sure hands(counters strip ball), very long legs (counters safe throw)
And some counters just negate eachother or take presidence over eachother, like grab/sidestep, block/wrestle.
You have to define what a 'counter' is to make a logical argument about 'not having a counter to a counter'. |
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| JimmyFantastic wrote: | | Whenever I think I might be wrong, I check with xyon to make sure I'm always right. |
| JimmyFantastic wrote: | | Hey Xyon you need to change your sig son, I never said anything vaguely like that! |
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dode74
Joined: Aug 14, 2009
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Jun 09, 2014 - 22:45 |
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Should Grab not counter Sidestep then? |
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xyon
Joined: Apr 19, 2005
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Jun 09, 2014 - 22:51 |
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| dode74 wrote: | | Should Grab not counter Sidestep then? |
Technically sidestep counters grab too. When both are in conflict with eachother, the normal rules for pushing a player back is used. A player with grab cannot use grab against a sidestep player, and a player with sidestep cannot use sidestep against a grab player. |
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plasmoid
Joined: Nov 03, 2009
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Jul 15, 2014 - 20:50 |
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Taking the original idea seriously:
Maybe it doesn't need to always give a push. But I'd love for it to work on blocks.
AFAIK in design it was prevented from working on blocks, in order to keep Big guys unreliable.
But Big guys are not in danger of Being overly powerful. IMO.
So - let it work on blocks. But don't let it Cancel Fend - for cpomb reasons.
Do let it Cancel wrestle however.
Blockernauting wrestlers is on of it's main atractions. 
Cheers
Martin |
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bghandras
Joined: Feb 06, 2011
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Jul 15, 2014 - 21:00 |
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The main reason I excluded the "cancel wrestle" clause is that if it works as I intended, then it circumvent wrestle anyway, and removing a not so important restriction makes the game more simple and accessible for new players. (Plus all the usual counter killstack reasons.) |
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bigGuy
Joined: Sep 21, 2009
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| Posted:
Jul 15, 2014 - 21:13 |
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Note, that Jugg is Fend counter on Blitz, and Grab is Fend counter on Block.
P.S. I think current Jugg skill is fine. It's great skill for main blitzer. |
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JimmyFantastic
Joined: Feb 06, 2007
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Jul 15, 2014 - 21:51 |
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| bigGuy wrote: | | P.S. I think current Jugg skill is fine. It's great skill for main blitzer. |
Great after Block, Claw, Tackle, MB, PO, Frenzy, JU, yup. |
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Pull down the veil - actively bad for the hobby! |
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Garion
Joined: Aug 19, 2009
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Jul 15, 2014 - 22:01 |
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You don't want frenzy on all your killers though. Just one with jugs is enough to delete wrodge elves. |
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JimmyFantastic
Joined: Feb 06, 2007
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Jul 15, 2014 - 22:03 |
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Yeah one with Frenzy, one with Juggs. If you get 2 legends and neither rolls doubles in his last few skills. |
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Pull down the veil - actively bad for the hobby! |
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