xyon
Joined: Apr 19, 2005
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Dec 15, 2014 - 18:56 |
 
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| harvestmouse wrote: | | xyon wrote: | I don't see what that has to do with this but oh well  |
Sorry, I may have missed the point. However when some coaches have a signature that has a stronger message than the post, I tend to get distracted. |
My request might be simple, but its a quality of life issue as far as the FFB client goes that many people have issues with, its a subtle nuance that effects everyone, and while it doesnt effect gameplay it effects the user experience, which I think is important too. If you cant see that then maybe you have been looking at the wrong things for too long. |
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| JimmyFantastic wrote: | | Whenever I think I might be wrong, I check with xyon to make sure I'm always right. |
| JimmyFantastic wrote: | | Hey Xyon you need to change your sig son, I never said anything vaguely like that! |
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Christer
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Sound in Java (or at least the API used) is quite complicated. What the client does is to translate the volume slider to something called Gain. Gain is measured with a logarithmic scale with 0dB being "full volume", and roughly speaking -10dB being "half volume".
The Java API allows between -80dB and +6dB. Before this change, 100 volume was +6dB Gain (which amplifies the original sound files by roughly 50%).
Now, the volume slider goes between 0dB (at volume 100) down to -33dB (which is roughly 10% of perceived loudness according to information found online).
Generally speaking, sound should be played at 0dB (also called unity gain), which should show up on sound level meters as near max, but not actually hitting it. This allows for the best "signal to noise" ratio, as you're broadcasting as high of a sound level as possible and the playback device don't have to amplify too much (and in the process amplify noise).
Looking at the actual output sent by the client implies to me that the sound files actually used by the client are really uneven in output and some of the louder ones are mastered way high (i.e., above 0dB) and cause clipping and distortion. This is likely what is causing the loudness problems for people.
On top of this, some of you are reporting distortion on "low" volumes (and you can see that someone says it distorts at 10-20, while others say it's way too loud even at those levels). I have no idea how bad this distortion is (as I can't really reproduce anything other than some "static" type stuff on top of the sound which comes from the original audio clipping (i.e., maxing out the possible sound level). In all my tests the actual sound level is very low at the "10" setting of volume.
Now, I'm comparing this to playing something like Youtube or Spotify at 100% volume in the applications, and with a reasonable output gain on the sound system. Basically, with sound set at 10% in FFB, Spotify will completely drown out the sound of the client.
Clearly, this isn't the case for everyone.
My guess is that this is a compound issue caused by multiple problems:
1. Source audio files are mastered beyond 0dB, and are both of low quality and has clipping issues
2. Some systems have a really hard time with the Java -> sound driver interface (to a point where it's seemingly broken)
3. To a lesser extent, the APIs used in the FFB Client aren't great. This is the main cause of the "lag" between an action and an event, but could possibly also cause some issues with sound quality.
Bottom line here is that this is a less than trivial problem to deal with, and with the vast number of different systems used it's *really* hard to figure out a reasonable solution to this.
I have tested this on three separate systems (a Windows laptop on Win7, My Mac, and my Windows 8 "gaming machine") and haven't noticed any of the problems discussed here (although the mac has some sound problems that manifest in a loud clicking sound at the end of a sound; most likely because Java on Mac is a second grade citizen when it comes to Oracle's commitment). |
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Kalimar
Joined: Sep 22, 2006
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Dec 15, 2014 - 19:37 |
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If anyone is able and willing to remaster the sound files (all .wav) I'd be more than happy to provide them... |
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Christer
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Looking at the files themselves, I don't think it's an option to remaster them. The sound files have irreversibly lost data, and can't be "fixed".
Basically, most of them are in 8 bit 22.05kHz format, and have a wide range of clipping issues. As an example, here are the waveforms of three of them, and it's fairly visible that they're inherently broken:
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Garion
Joined: Aug 19, 2009
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Dec 15, 2014 - 19:54 |
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hmm interesting. I still think fumbblers with mics should record the sound effects. I would have done them myself (used to be an amateur sound mixer back in my early 20s) but alas I have no equipment at all now. But it should be pretty easy to do to reasonable standard. |
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Christer
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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I personally have the recording equipment, but no skill and no sound booth to do this kind of thing  |
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pythrr
Joined: Mar 07, 2006
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Dec 15, 2014 - 20:00 |
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does your computer not have a volume button? |
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Garion
Joined: Aug 19, 2009
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Dec 15, 2014 - 20:26 |
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| Christer wrote: | | I personally have the recording equipment, but no skill and no sound booth to do this kind of thing |
a sound booth would be lovely but its not vital, you can usuaully isolate and remove the ambient noise, static and so on without too much trouble to achieve a level of sound quality that would be suitable for the client. but it would be a pretty time consuming and dull task for someone to take on. |
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mrt1212
Joined: Feb 26, 2013
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Dec 15, 2014 - 20:38 |
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I have some experience with audio production (went to school for it before I realized its a good hobby, not a good career)
What you want to do is get a clean recording of each sound effect, then run a compressor/limiter on them so that the dynamic range (that is, the volume levels) is within a specific ceiling and floor and have a similar sound profile from speaker to speaker.
I have the recording equipment sans microphone (Cubase LE, Native Instruments USB interface with 2 mic inputs) but I would be willing to get a Shure SM58 and toss around some ideas on the effects we're looking for. |
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Garion
Joined: Aug 19, 2009
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Dec 15, 2014 - 20:42 |
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we just need the noises that already exist re-recorded.
And someone called Bruce Campbell to say 'Ohh thats gotta hurt'
hehe |
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Kalimar
Joined: Sep 22, 2006
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Dec 15, 2014 - 21:01 |
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just updated the volume slider to show the dB value
EDIT: one should note that several in-game sounds are still from the old JavaBBowl client (e.g. the examples shown by Christer above). Most spectator sounds and newer in-game sounds (such as a troll eating a goblin) are probably of better quality. |
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mrt1212
Joined: Feb 26, 2013
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Dec 15, 2014 - 21:05 |
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The clipping is a recording issue that necessitates a complete redo of the raw recording though, and that means some creativity can be injected at that step of the process. The other ones that are low volume can be messed with until it fits.
Christer, in an ideal world what would you have done? Rerecord everything at 44.1K 16 bit or is the size of files a mitigating factor?
I'll be happy to help any way I can if the ball gets rolling. |
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the_Sage
Joined: Jan 13, 2011
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Dec 15, 2014 - 21:21 |
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| Kalimar wrote: | Just deployed a fix for this (no new version number). Volume can be set between 10 and 100. To mute the sound use the appropriate setting (instead of the volume control). I hope this is better. Hard to say without being able to test on all the different systems used out there...
EDIT: let me know if this works for you (and how it is improved, if at all), please! |
Wow, that was quick! Will test it tonight.
(while reading this I only just realized that this has always bothered me too) |
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Kalimar
Joined: Sep 22, 2006
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| Posted:
Dec 15, 2014 - 21:22 |
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the_Sage
Joined: Jan 13, 2011
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Dec 15, 2014 - 21:24 |
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| xyon wrote: | | harvestmouse wrote: | | xyon wrote: | | I don't see what that has to do with this but oh well |
Sorry, I may have missed the point. However when some coaches have a signature that has a stronger message than the post, I tend to get distracted. |
My request might be simple, but its a quality of life issue as far as the FFB client goes that many people have issues with, its a subtle nuance that effects everyone, and while it doesnt effect gameplay it effects the user experience, which I think is important too. If you cant see that then maybe you have been looking at the wrong things for too long. |
I think harvestmouse's point says more about your signature than it does about your post. (though with HM, you never know  ) |
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