mrt1212
Joined: Feb 26, 2013
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Feb 25, 2015 - 00:46 |
 
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| licker wrote: | The box has always had an issue at certain TV levels, so while some coaches claim it's brilliant when you start a team (and some coaches only play their teams for ~20 games anyway), it's very problematic for teams which want to play say 100 games. At least if they want to remain at higher TVs.
This is mitigated for euros as the draws are deeper so matchups are better balanced by TV. In NA, you can have that one guy who only ever plays his killer Nurgle activating, and if you and 2 new teams activate guess what? You get to get killed by the 2000tv nurgle over and over.
Again, this isn't a problem so much as it's just design failing when the activation pool is very shallow. The solution to that is to deepen the activation pool. If this cannot be done organically (which it seems it cannot) it should be done mechanically, by requiring all coaches to activate 3 or more teams.
Ok ok, so the guy will build his 3 Nurgle teams... yeah, I've covered this ground before, I have very little interest to cover it again. Suffice it to say there is a mechanical way around that as well. |
Its funny that i started doing that exact thing after we had discussions just to see if it was enjoyable. It has been for me, Slann exluded, to try all thr different teams to one degree or another and not focus on one team |
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licker
Joined: Jul 10, 2009
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Feb 25, 2015 - 01:01 |
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| mrt1212 wrote: | | licker wrote: | The box has always had an issue at certain TV levels, so while some coaches claim it's brilliant when you start a team (and some coaches only play their teams for ~20 games anyway), it's very problematic for teams which want to play say 100 games. At least if they want to remain at higher TVs.
This is mitigated for euros as the draws are deeper so matchups are better balanced by TV. In NA, you can have that one guy who only ever plays his killer Nurgle activating, and if you and 2 new teams activate guess what? You get to get killed by the 2000tv nurgle over and over.
Again, this isn't a problem so much as it's just design failing when the activation pool is very shallow. The solution to that is to deepen the activation pool. If this cannot be done organically (which it seems it cannot) it should be done mechanically, by requiring all coaches to activate 3 or more teams.
Ok ok, so the guy will build his 3 Nurgle teams... yeah, I've covered this ground before, I have very little interest to cover it again. Suffice it to say there is a mechanical way around that as well. |
Its funny that i started doing that exact thing after we had discussions just to see if it was enjoyable. It has been for me, Slann exluded, to try all thr different teams to one degree or another and not focus on one team |
Right, that's what Box would need to become to get my interest again. Not a place to pick your race and rack up lots of casualties, but a place where you are required to play a selection of different races and prove that you can be successful in any matchup, no matter which side of it you wind up on.
I don't expect that to happen, too many babies would cry all over themselves about it  |
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pythrr
Joined: Mar 07, 2006
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Feb 25, 2015 - 08:32 |
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this would be a great idea
a pity |
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koadah
Joined: Mar 30, 2005
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Feb 25, 2015 - 09:09 |
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RedDevilCG
Joined: Jan 09, 2010
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Feb 26, 2015 - 21:01 |
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Wasn't the box made to assists bash CPOMB teams to get games in the first place? Let the population continue to fall until they all play against each other I say!  |
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BillBrasky
Joined: Feb 15, 2005
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Feb 26, 2015 - 21:09 |
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It's been stated before.
The sole issue is that there is a small number of 'mericans and cannucks activating.
I think Koadah is right. If you can get a game, it's an improvement.
Most of the coaches in this time zone tend to favor ranked play.
If you can get the majority to switch to box, you'll have less of an issue. |
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PainState
Joined: Apr 04, 2007
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Feb 26, 2015 - 21:12 |
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| BillBrasky wrote: | It's been stated before.
The sole issue is that there is a small number of 'mericans and cannucks activating.
I think Koadah is right. If you can get a game, it's an improvement.
Most of the coaches in this time zone tend to favor ranked play.
If you can get the majority to switch to box, you'll have less of an issue. |
Oh, so this is a MP (My Problem) and not a YP (Your Problem, FUMBBL)?
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PainState
Joined: Apr 04, 2007
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Feb 26, 2015 - 21:19 |
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| RedDevilCG wrote: | | Wasn't the box made to assists bash CPOMB teams to get games in the first place? |
Sometimes coaches forget Black Box version 1.0 when it became very clear what the Box was all about.
The unintended side effect of the Box V 1.0 was that you could make any KILLER team, no matter what form it takes and you cannot avoid it.
Version 2.0 under CRP was better but still fell into the same pit trap.
Version 2.1 which we now play under was a attempt to mitigate the pit fall through the scheduler.
But as we have now found out that once your team reaches the 20+ and 30+ match levels you are hanging by a finger on the edge of the pit.
**Any mention of the current killer combo of choice is strictly forbidden and I would like you to direct you comments to this forum. >>>>>>>>>>How the killer combo effects the Box |
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PainState
Joined: Apr 04, 2007
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Feb 26, 2015 - 21:31 |
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I think some coaches just need to step back and face the harsh reality of the Box.
The #1 goal of the Box is force match ups through a scheduler. A lot of coaches like the spirit of that concept.
BUT
Because we do not have 40+ teams activating at one time that concept is totally flawed. The idealistic idea behind the Box then falls prey to bashers. min/max and carnage.
"We" stoically stand around and say the box is the box, nurgs are going nurg and so forth but we all know deep down.
The box format will not work in this idealistic universe we want it to be with the current level of activations and the # of coaches who play on FUMBBL.
Bash will always rule the box under the conditions we play on FUMBBL. You can bitch and moan, cry to the heavens for nerfs.
BUT no matter what changes you make, no matter how many nerfs you put in place. BASH will always rule the box and send your pixels and team to the RIP bin.
Get over it or go to the link above and scream to the heavens.
Oh, you want me to give you the answer to how to fix the box?
What da hell man? I already told you. No matter what changes are made to the Box it will always, for all time, be the play ground of the killers, min/max, smash your team into kibble bits division. |
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Last edited by PainState on %b %26, %2015 - %21:%Feb; edited 1 time in total |
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Cavetroll
Joined: Jan 21, 2009
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Feb 26, 2015 - 21:36 |
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This is what it states about the scheduler under the Blackbox division details
"A list of all possible matches is generated for all the teams activated by every pair of coaches. Determining if a match is allowed involves looking at the TV difference and the number of games played by the teams. The following method is used:
Below 3 games played, max TV difference allowed is within 10%
For 3 to 9 games played, max TV difference allowed is within 15%
For 10 to 29 games played, max TV difference allowed is (15 + (games - 10) * 2)%
For 30 or more games, any opponent is allowed
For a match to be allowed, both teams must be within the limit of the opponent."
It goes on to talk a lot about Suitability scores and various ways matchups are looked at. Note there is NOTHING in this that says a team under 15 games can not be matched up against a team with more than 15 games. Matchups are still done by TV; games played just increases the amount of difference that can exist beween two teams in a potential matchup.
The only 'protection' is this statement in the notes on Suitability:
"8. Calculate rookie protection factor:
r_games = ( Min(games_1, games_2) + 1 ) / 15, if either team has less than 15 games and the opponent 15 or more
r_games = 1, otherwise"
That is only one small calculation in a nine-step process to determine Suitability for a match. In a pool of exactly 4 coaches activating less than 8 teams, this will probably not make any difference. Hence the perception that North American time-zone coaches are not seeing the 'rookie protection'. |
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nerf indigo 2016 |
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Beerox
Joined: Feb 14, 2008
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Feb 26, 2015 - 22:02 |
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Very cool to me would be an invitational league with a box activation doohickey. The boss would decide who is cool enough for his league, and reject/eject the bash addicts. Activate to play. So basically league/box mix. We'll make licker manage it.
I know, not enough coaches...splits the player base... yaddah. But I can dream. |
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CanvasBack
Joined: Jan 15, 2007
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Feb 26, 2015 - 22:18 |
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I've made two box teams but I never get to play. |
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"When you have shot and killed a man you have in some measure clarified your attitude toward him. You have given a definite answer to a definite problem. For better or worse you have acted decisively. In a way, the next move is up to him." R.A. Lafferty |
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Merrick18818
Joined: Dec 14, 2013
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Feb 26, 2015 - 22:32 |
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If there's nobody in America activating, how is it FUMBBL's problem? |
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licker
Joined: Jul 10, 2009
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Feb 26, 2015 - 22:45 |
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| TheThinkTank wrote: | | If there's nobody in America activating, how is it FUMBBL's problem? |
Only if one assumes that fumbbl wants coaches to play using the Box.
I don't think it's a fumbbl problem, it's a fumbbl community problem that is more (or only depending on how you look at it) prevalent for coaches who play in the evenings of the americas.
Does it need to be fixed? Well that only depends on what you want out of it. Guys like kodah keep on saying it's fine. Well it's fine for him (I guess), but I agree with PS that there is a fundamental problem even when it's hidden by lots of activations.
Personally I don't really care if it ever gets addressed or not though, since these persistent leagues don't interest me any more.
That said, I do love the discussions about it |
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fidius
Joined: Jun 17, 2011
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Feb 26, 2015 - 23:06 |
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I lurk Box activation most NA evenings, curious to see who's on but not activating myself (90 min stretches of free time are more rare than I would like). Players have come and gone, and I haven't conducted exit interviews, but it's possible that once they endure the high-TV cherrypick enough times they lose interest and move on. It is common at the moment for one coach to activate only 2000+ Nurgle and wait for the cherry (ie you get to 4 players but no game). There is usually one team in this position -- not two, unfortunately.
The question becomes whether Box should accommodate these teams, or incentivize multiple team activation. Right now it does both -- if you are avoiding those teams, you play low-TV and/or activate as many teams as you can; if you ARE that team, you activate it and wait for the cherry to roll in. To these pickers, failing to get a game does not appear to be a disincentive. Just like the Ranked campers, they got all the time in the world. Must be nice.
In other words, if you are only activating one team at low-pop times, you are a free-rider. If we all activated more teams in NA evenings, we might see coaches stick around longer. |
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