licker
Joined: Jul 10, 2009
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 Posted:
Apr 13, 2015 - 18:19 |
 
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How is it 'free'?
You have to pick up/pass/catch/gfix3...
Sure even if all of those are only 2+ it's still not free.
But I understand the objection, I just don't think anything here is actually broken  |
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Kam
Joined: Nov 06, 2012
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Apr 13, 2015 - 18:38 |
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Leilond, could you PLEASE stop turning every single thread into CPOMB ranting? |
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GLN 17 is out!
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mrt1212
Joined: Feb 26, 2013
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Apr 13, 2015 - 18:50 |
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I don't get the objection to Natural One Turners either.
1. They aren't certainties
2. It's a core feature of Skaven who have a propensity to get wiped out thanks to the bummy Linerats who can't hold up their end of the bargain.
3. Other natural one turner candidates need to roll 10s twice to get there, need to take Sprint and Sure Feet, are AV7 and generally are targeted first and foremost. Stashing a one turner requires a bench to ensure he won't get targeted on defense, and with a lot of AV7 that's not really something you can count on.
4. OTTDs are totally broken at sub 1300 matches but only because there are not a lot of tools in the arsenal of opponents to get that OTTD on the field and make him pay even if he's on the field.
More to the point, we should strive to accept the reality of what is and reconcile that with what we'd like our experience to be.
Some fraction of games are going to be dictated by playing against a OTTD
Some fraction of games are going to be dictated by keeping your head in the face of Clawpomb
Some fraction of games are going to be dictated by keeping your head in the face of Pomb+Fouling
Some fraction of games are going to be dictated by playing against guard locking dorfs.
The thing is, there are so many varied experiences that play out under the banner of Bloodbowl, it's hard to come up with a sufficient rationale that OTTDs are more odious than all the other things you encounter once you get a full head of steam going with a team. They're an annoyance but add zestiness to the game. |
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fidius
Joined: Jun 17, 2011
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Apr 13, 2015 - 18:50 |
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"Free" in the sense of being riskless to the player, I guess. Push-plays executed with 2d Block blocks are virtually riskless too I suppose, but at least involve strategy, an extra dose of fortune, and can be defended against in reasonable (if imperfect) ways. So all of those things.
| Leilond wrote: | If oneturner was so overpowered, why skaven aren't nearly winning a major? Why those tournaments are ALWAYS won by Bashers and every now and then by wood elf?
Pheraps, because good coaches, know their chicken |
Well, because POMB v AV7, right. Sounds like your objections basically come down to this. I don't disagree but should probably explain that nearly all my alt rules ideas are assumed to be in the context of an holistic rules re-write. In that alternate universe, reality coheres. (Join me! The Kool-Aid's fine!)
@Kam/PC, I agree the problem isn't Sprint, it's Sprint+MA. But if it's true it's a problem, this skill makes it less of a problem. Short of extending the field by a square or two, or lowering MAs by 1 across the board (ie Human Lineman = MA5), or getting rid of Sprint entirely (which I am fine with as well), the problem (if it exists) will persist in some form.
There's also the small matter of fluff consistency... "Sprint" works as a name because it implies more speed, but really shouldn't all players be able to Sprint? And you get there with a Go For It, ie a shot of intestinal fortitude. So maybe your player actually has more desire than most, or an extra chamber in his heart or something. But then surely that should spill over into other actions... Anyway, minor irritation. |
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Leilond
Joined: Jan 02, 2012
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Apr 13, 2015 - 18:56 |
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It's i suggest all you to play around 30 matches in the box with skaven and see how "free" is building a oneturner and keep him alive for more than 5-6 matches. You need 4 skills to have a decent one and the firt team proerly built willll hunt and hit him.
It's not "free" at all |
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mrt1212
Joined: Feb 26, 2013
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Apr 13, 2015 - 19:17 |
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| Leilond wrote: | It's i suggest all you to play around 30 matches in the box with skaven and see how "free" is building a oneturner and keep him alive for more than 5-6 matches. You need 4 skills to have a decent one and the firt team proerly built willll hunt and hit him.
It's not "free" at all |
Leilond, I can provide an example of what happens - you wind up with One Turners at 1200 TV after the rest of the team has eaten it.
https://fumbbl.com/p/team?team_id=766759
https://fumbbl.com/p/team?team_id=770918
https://fumbbl.com/p/team?team_id=727958
1/2 my Box skaven have natural one turners. The turnover is incredible. |
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Leilond
Joined: Jan 02, 2012
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Apr 13, 2015 - 19:18 |
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To make a more practical example.
If in your chaos pact team, you buy your thitd big guy before being prepared to face blodgers, bringing your tv to 1250, without a sigle tackle, you cannot whine or talk about gutters overpowered. It'syour build fault.
This situation inspired this thread, not a real rule hole. It's not a rule matter. It's a match lost because of some team buil choice.
If the coach waited a bit befote bringing the tv so high, no skaven could have enough skill to have a decent oneturner. Than, with a couple (or three) of tackler, the things could be different |
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Beerox
Joined: Feb 14, 2008
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Apr 13, 2015 - 19:40 |
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Just add 10k to cost of Gutters, how bout that. My 90k Blitz Ra says gutters are one of the best value players in the game. I believe him.
Anyways, how big of a problem is this outside of ranked? These players don't last long in real play environments right?
Anyways they're fun to hunt. |
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Leilond
Joined: Jan 02, 2012
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Apr 13, 2015 - 20:25 |
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| Beerox wrote: | Just add 10k to cost of Gutters, how bout that. My 90k Blitz Ra says gutters are one of the best value players in the game. I believe him.
Anyways, how big of a problem is this outside of ranked? These players don't last long in real play environments right?
Anyways they're fun to hunt. |
They do not last long in black box too, and it isn't a REAL environment eighter
They live long only in ranked, if you are a big picker and because people usually don't want to play with you
When I face skaven, I'm more "afraid" of well rounded developed gutters (like a wrestle/dountless/leap/tackle one) than oneturner, really much more
Gutters are GREAT. But if you take the best positional of a team, put there 4 skills and a double (same value of a good one turner), you always obtain a GREAT player. Think about a 4 skill + double wardancer/saurus/beastmen
Pick whatever 190k player and it's always gamechanger, in a way or another. The Gutters are great and extremely fragile. The more a player is fragile, the more great it is, because you'll have to build a new one every other match |
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mrt1212
Joined: Feb 26, 2013
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Apr 13, 2015 - 20:35 |
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Hakawarrior
Joined: Sep 09, 2014
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Apr 13, 2015 - 20:44 |
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Lets go one further and add audibles for defence and offence to once a half change their setup to a predetermined setup. Pre kick off of course. |
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Leilond
Joined: Jan 02, 2012
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Apr 13, 2015 - 20:52 |
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Real environment are the leagues. The game is designed for leagues, not for black box, where if you buy 50 reserve you'll face a stronger opponent. The game is not intended that way, but with leagues and inducements
In black box, you face less "tackle", because there are less agile teams (67% of the matches are played by 9 races, all bashers + humans), thus it's not balanced, and you meet a lot of bashers and less agiles, thus you do not take tackle very much, but when you meet a blodge full team you are in some trouble
In ranked you pick your opponent and can avoid the teams that are more difficult to you, thus it's not balanced eighter
The leages, on the contrary, usually have some rules to prevent the overload of some races, this make every team forced to play, before or then, with different type of opponents, and force you to build more well rounded teams and players. And the gutters meet much more tackle, and die a lot, and rebuild, and die.
If the Gutters really were "unbalanced", all the winners of tournies was skaven, the majority of the leagues was in their hands... and it's not like that, the tournies are always won by bahsers. In leagues, where the environment is more complex than ranked and black box (two very one direction way of play), the season are more "distrubuted" and sometimes woodies dominate, until someone kill that ST4 wardancer and for a couple of season they stop winning and so on, season after season |
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ErobererZim
Joined: Dec 19, 2009
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Apr 13, 2015 - 21:50 |
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In Leagues be Mices pretty Bad, there play normaly 1-2 Seasons and need normal 2-3 Regeneration Seasons to rebuild, cause there gettet pounted in 1-2Games but than Fulldestruction. There win a lot of Games but cant follow the Hardlvling of the bashers or Elfs cause there live much longer and than cames the Game where a Norse, Orc or Dorf Team cames and pulled em into the Grave or cripplet them away, when u say nomore run strait to TD without chainpushes there will never get enough money to buy the Dead/cripplet Players new. |
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Leilond
Joined: Jan 02, 2012
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Apr 13, 2015 - 22:33 |
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| ErobererZim wrote: | | In Leagues be Mices pretty Bad, there play normaly 1-2 Seasons and need normal 2-3 Regeneration Seasons to rebuild, cause there gettet pounted in 1-2Games but than Fulldestruction. There win a lot of Games but cant follow the Hardlvling of the bashers or Elfs cause there live much longer and than cames the Game where a Norse, Orc or Dorf Team cames and pulled em into the Grave or cripplet them away, when u say nomore run strait to TD without chainpushes there will never get enough money to buy the Dead/cripplet Players new. |
That's a fact. If you completely remove the small chance to have a true oneturner for some matches every now and then (from the moment you have the 4th skill till the moment he dies), your remove any real league competitiveness from the rats, completely. They will be effective only in ranked, where they can count your tackle and refuse the match if you have more than 1
This topic was born on the frustration for a team that at 1250TV still didn't have a single tackle nor block and thus was condamned to lose against a 1250 TV skaven, that usually means at least 2 blodgers gutters and two blitzers, nothing more than this. It is the whine of a TV bloated team |
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Roland
Joined: May 12, 2004
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Apr 13, 2015 - 22:49 |
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what about sneaky git? it's waay more powerful than sprint, right?
let's nerf SG first.
I'd say instead of working on doubles, it should affect only double 1s. |
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