Kam
Joined: Nov 06, 2012
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 Posted:
Apr 15, 2015 - 17:19 |
 
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Smeat
Joined: Nov 19, 2006
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| Posted:
Apr 16, 2015 - 02:01 |
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That does solve the whole problem nicely, but short of that...
| kilinrax wrote: | My last match was v gobbos and what should have been a comfortable win (as dark elves) was 3-2 due to two TTM OTTDs.
... haven't found any guides on what I'd have thought isn't that rare a problem. |
It isn't rare to try to see an attempt, but it is rare to succeed...
In fact, unless it's Turn 8 or 16, don't even worry about it (too much - see below). A true OTS TTM is so odds against* that it should stop itself.
(* without specialized players - including all of: an Ag 4 (or 5!) Catch/Sure Feet Goblin, a +Ag Ogre w/ Pass, multiple speedy (non-Animosity) ballhandlers (w/ KoR, esp v. Kick), etc. And even then.)
If he made 2 OTS scores, you were just VERY* unlucky, and there's NOTHING you can do about bad luck.
(* Without specialized players:
o 2+ Pickup (at best, w/ DElf)
o assume no GFI's)
o 2+ Animosity
o 3+ Catch
o some blocks to clear TZ's from Ogre (8/9?)
o 2+ Bone Head
o 2+ Always Hungry
o 3+ TTM x (5/8?) neutral Scatter
o 4+ Landing (75% w/ Team RR)
o 3x3+ Dodge (w/ Dodge RR) 2/3 x 2/3 x 8/9
o 1x 2+ GFI ... let's be generous (with rounding and where the Team RR falls) and call it 5%, 1 in 20?
And if you have Kick, you might easily add GFI's to the Handoff, if not put it out of possible MA range - 0%, done.)
TTM OTS is TOUGH.
| DaCoach wrote: | | count in the animosity roll as well - TTM scores with pact are hard |
Animosity only if the Skaven or DElf are involved - no Animosity roll for a Catch.
That said, it's a good bet it'll be one of those (Ag 4 or MA 7) unless there's a Marauder ballhandler who's in range...
| Shraaaag wrote: | You can't use pass if you're going to TTM the same turn. TTM is the pass action.  |
... and that's where Kick becomes the first part of a good defense, at least vs. OTS TTM attempts.
Kick deep and away from the Goblin. Ball handling is not easy, so you do NOT want the ball going OB - I'd go with 3 in from one edge and 4 from the other (pro'ly 3 from the back, to push them deep, but maybe 3 from the far side if the goblin is badly off-centered).
| Leilond wrote: | | The probable landing zone for goblin is 6-8 square from the LOS |
Not exactly - the probable landing zone is 5-7 squares from the Ogre, with 4-8 a safe bet (and 3-9 as max possible).
TTM can be thrown 6 squares from the Ogre (if throwing straight ahead), and then scattering +/-2 squares max is a good bet. (There are 3 separate scatter rolls, so it's possible to scatter 3 in the same general direction, but that's only ~1%*).
(* 3x d8 scatter rolls in the same general direction - 3/8 cubed = 27/512, or ~1/19 - BUT you don't care if it scatters to the side or backwards, only toward the goal! So 1/19 x 1/4 = ~1/76 -
In fact, if you include scattering 2 toward the goal, the odds are still only (3/8 x 3/8 x 5/8, in any order) 45/512, or ~1/11.
So you could reliably count on the throw landing no more than 7 from the Ogre, and very safely 8.
And the Ogre can't move first b/c the Goblin can't move first - Gobbo has to move after the TTM to score.)
So you set up ~8 from the LoS, or maybe 9 - this also prevents him from Blitzing a hole for the Goblin (MA 6 + 2 GFI's, then + Quick Snap if you want to be sure).
No need to be back near the LoS (as Leilond pictured) - esp if not T8/16, you still want your 5* players to be up as far as you can to respond to other plays.
(* Only 5 for TTM, as Leilond shows - Stunty doesn't care how many TZ's, 1 or 6 are the same, so 1 is enough.)
With Kick, I'd then center my LoS and put my spare players centered up 3 squares in front of the rear-defenders, 6-squares from the LoS - Passing is a circle, so he can 1) center the Ogre and throw into them (increasing the chances of a crash-landing) OR 2) Center the Ogre but throw to the side (increasing the chance of GFI's or landing out of range), OR 3) put the Ogre to one side (as shown).
| Code: |
12 |_____bbbbO_____|
12 | xxx |
11 | |
10 | |
9 | |
8 | |
7 | |
6 | X X X | (7 from LoS - near "landing zone", +1 GFI for BLitz)
5 | |
4 | |
3 | X X X X X | (10 from LoS - "blitz-proof")
2 | |
1 |_______________|
| | |
So if he lines up his Ogre (O) to one side of his Blockers (b) - you Kick to the other back corner, making the OTS hand-off harder (if not beyond possible MA).
He may try to blitz one of the forward players out of the way before the TTM - and that's another 5/6 fail (or better).
Now, IF the TTM attempt is NOT OTS - if he has the time to first move the ball forward to the Goblin, and THEN, a later Turn, TTM - that's different, and tougher to defend. If he has lots of time (like from Turn 1 of a half), you almost have to ignore the possibility* - maybe keep a Tackle sweeper back (in the "landing zone" (6 squares from wherever Ogre will TTM) IF you have them to spare), and focus on the cage/grind.
(* Once the Goblin gets the ball, it's still 2+ BoneHead x 2+ Really Hungry x 3+ Pass x 4+ Landing (with Team RR) - and that assumes the Scatter doesn't matter and no GFI's or Dodges are involved - or ~33%, 1 in 3 attempts at best)
If you want to have ~3 players back to defend against the mid-half TTM (or just a 2-Turn), then start with (most) everyone up, spread out in pairs, defending against penetration. Then move (2-4) players back to ~6-8 squares from where the GOBLIN is at the end of the Offense's turn - Ogre can move to him and TTM, but he cant' move to the Ogre for the TTM (unless hoping the inaccurate scatter drops him in the endzone, and nothing much you can do about that.)
Your trying to put TZ's in his Landing Zone and/or make him Dodge more.
And, of course, just kill the Goblin if you can. 100% stop. 
| kilinrax wrote: | Skill ups are:
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Heh, ain't that always the way.  |
_________________
Let's go A.P.E.!
(...and what exactly do you think they do with all those dead players?...)
Last edited by Smeat on %b %16, %2015 - %02:%Apr; edited 3 times in total |
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xnoelx
Joined: Jun 05, 2012
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| Posted:
Apr 16, 2015 - 02:04 |
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If he's throwing with the Ogre, there's no Really Hungry.
And worth mentioning that if the Ogre has Strong Arm, it becomes a 2+ pass. Or Pass gives him a rr. So at best, it can be a 2+ with rr. But you don't see many Ogres built that way... |
_________________
 Nerf Ball 2014 |
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Kam
Joined: Nov 06, 2012
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| Posted:
Apr 16, 2015 - 12:42 |
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No, really, kill that Goblin. 
I wasn't joking. You have to know your priorities. If you think OTTD are a big threat, then you get rid of that threat. You go 3d on him, and eventually, you foul. He shouldn't last more than a couple of turns on the pitch.
But yeah, don't worry too much: Pact is one of the worst rave to TTM with. |
_________________
GLN 17 is out!
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Tantibus
Joined: Jul 21, 2014
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| Posted:
Apr 16, 2015 - 13:08 |
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Get kick skill, ruins everything. |
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Roland
Joined: May 12, 2004
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| Posted:
Apr 16, 2015 - 13:10 |
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| Smeat wrote: | | Code: |
12 |_____bbbbO_____|
12 | xxx |
11 | |
10 | |
9 | |
8 | |
7 | |
6 | X X X | (7 from LoS - near "landing zone", +1 GFI for BLitz)
5 | |
4 | |
3 | X X X X X | (10 from LoS - "blitz-proof")
2 | |
1 |_______________|
| | |
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this is very effective, but beware of AG5 flings!  |
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JimmyFantastic
Joined: Feb 06, 2007
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| Posted:
Apr 16, 2015 - 13:14 |
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Yeah that set up is what I use, copied it from Garion |
_________________
Pull down the veil - actively bad for the hobby! |
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the_Sage
Joined: Jan 13, 2011
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| Posted:
Apr 16, 2015 - 13:22 |
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| Leilond wrote: |
If you have 3 more players, you can put them in front of the three central players, oping the TTM make the goblin scatter in that zone
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I do this, with the 3 others 3 squares in front of the middle three guys. Means they have to dodge no matter what, AND likely have a TZ while landing. |
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Leilond
Joined: Jan 02, 2012
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| Posted:
Apr 16, 2015 - 14:14 |
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| the_Sage wrote: | | Leilond wrote: |
If you have 3 more players, you can put them in front of the three central players, oping the TTM make the goblin scatter in that zone
|
I do this, with the 3 others 3 squares in front of the middle three guys. Means they have to dodge no matter what, AND likely have a TZ while landing. |
I usually use it with skaven, because rarely I've more players on the pitch after Tree bashing and Fling fouling! |
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Kam
Joined: Nov 06, 2012
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| Posted:
Apr 16, 2015 - 14:29 |
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| Roland wrote: | | Smeat wrote: | | Code: |
12 |_____bbbbO_____|
12 | xxx |
11 | |
10 | |
9 | |
8 | |
7 | |
6 | X X X | (7 from LoS - near "landing zone", +1 GFI for BLitz)
5 | |
4 | |
3 | X X X X X | (10 from LoS - "blitz-proof")
2 | |
1 |_______________|
| | |
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this is very effective, but beware of AG5 flings! |
I like to put the second line of defence 1 or 2 squares upper. There's a chance the midget is gonna land on one of your players, which means it will automatically result in a turnover. |
_________________
GLN 17 is out!
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Leilond
Joined: Jan 02, 2012
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| Posted:
Apr 16, 2015 - 14:31 |
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| Kam wrote: | | Roland wrote: | | Smeat wrote: | | Code: |
12 |_____bbbbO_____|
12 | xxx |
11 | |
10 | |
9 | |
8 | |
7 | |
6 | X X X | (7 from LoS - near "landing zone", +1 GFI for BLitz)
5 | |
4 | |
3 | X X X X X | (10 from LoS - "blitz-proof")
2 | |
1 |_______________|
| | |
|
this is very effective, but beware of AG5 flings! |
I like to put the second line of defence 1 or 2 squares upper. There's a chance the midget is gonna land on one of your players, which means it will automatically result in a turnover. |
You risk being blitzed by the minotaur, with a big hole as a result |
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Kam
Joined: Nov 06, 2012
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| Posted:
Apr 16, 2015 - 14:33 |
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If you wanna do 2 GFI with a minotaur to take out one player of the first line, be my guest... And the minotaur himself would become an obstacle (land on him = TO). |
_________________
GLN 17 is out!
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Leilond
Joined: Jan 02, 2012
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| Posted:
Apr 16, 2015 - 14:40 |
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| Kam wrote: | | If you wanna do 2 GFI with a minotaur to take out one player of the first line, be my guest... And the minotaur himself would become an obstacle (land on him = TO). |
Well.. you wrote you put 2 square upper the diagram, that means NO go for it
If you deploy at 2 go for it from the minotaur (8 squares from the LOS), I agree with you, even if with a triple scatter in the right direction the gobbo can land behind you and make a single dodge... but you gain more chance to have a player in the land zone |
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Kam
Joined: Nov 06, 2012
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| Posted:
Apr 16, 2015 - 14:43 |
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| Kam wrote: | | I like to put the second line of defence 1 or 2 squares upper. |
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_________________
GLN 17 is out!
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Leilond
Joined: Jan 02, 2012
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| Posted:
Apr 16, 2015 - 14:48 |
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| Kam wrote: | | Kam wrote: | | I like to put the second line of defence 1 or 2 squares upper. |
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hehehe.. don't waste your time with me, I'm stupid |
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