licker
Joined: Jul 10, 2009
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 Posted:
Apr 16, 2015 - 18:11 |
 
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My opinion is that sure hands is a staple skill for all teams, but its so much better on AG4+ players.
Saves you rerolls, lets you go for pick ups in traffic without needing the rr, and protects against strip (though that last is usually not that critical).
Short of taking MB on your runner with a double I'd think sure hands maximizes his skill set more than leap. |
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Smeat
Joined: Nov 19, 2006
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Apr 16, 2015 - 21:15 |
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What Licker and Rat said. I learned the vast majority of what I know about DElfs from them, or coaches like them.
| Killing_Time wrote: | | Now I know what the community feels about Runners, and yes I know I have two of them. I like them... |
That, alone, is reason enough to have them - "fun" is where ~you~ find it, not in optimizing a team according to someone else's ideals.
The question, tho', is... is that 2nd one really being "fun" for you?...
| Killing_Time wrote: | To be fair I'm not happy with the balance either.
The second runner was definitely a mistake... I'm horribly short of cash and lacking a key member of the team too. |
| Killing_Time wrote: | | I'll have to look at TV to see if I'm giving up anything too much by keeping the Runner. |
I won't re-hash ALL the arguments against Runners, but I will highlight the ones you, yourself, are experiencing...
With only 4 linos (and one of those your Kicker), if you lose just 1 of the front 3 who else goes on the LoS? Blitzer #4? Expensive risk for the luxury of that 4th AV 7 positional... or get a 13th player, one buffer for all your other positionals, which starts to get bloaty at your TV.
Meanwhile, how many spp will he need to get "good", spp that could be going to a Blitzer or Witch, or that the St 4 will take b/c he has to score? 
And those lost blitzers... any chance they were protecting AV 7 players? If you had a lino protecting a blitzer, would that have been cheaper? (No need to answer - you know.)
There's a reason they're not the most popular positional, so you're paying for that luxury, one way or another.
| Killing_Time wrote: | | Is all of this just asking for them all to be killed in their next match? |
Yes, but Nuffle doesn't grant all requests.
| Killing_Time wrote: | Dark Elf team in a private Cyanide league which currently looks like this.
4 Blitzers: (Dodge/Tackle) (Dodge/Guard) (Dodge/Side Step) ()
2 Witch Elves: (Block/Side Step) (Ag5/Block)
2 Runners: (S4/Ag5/Block/Dodge) (Block)
4 Linemen: (Kick/Wrestle) (Wrestle) (Block)
Does anyone have advice on how to advance the rest of the team? |
Ag 5 + SH is a vacuum cleaner - no brainer on that.
You ~could~ make the other Witch your SH vacuum, BUT they're better as a sacker, popping the ball for your Star. Witch gets Tackle next if you're conservative, Strip if your opponents are poor in position, but Leap would be best (but only if you are willing to risk her).
Sure Hands on stat-star, Leap on Witch for (approximately) the same scoring potential and deep-frenzy-blitz threat.
| Killing_Time wrote: | | Are there any specific skills you'd like to see on the team, or any obvious routs to take the current crop of players? |
Blodge that 4th blitzer - fast 6 spp, cheap 20k TV bump, huge improvement on so many levels.
You seem to have a solid grasp on the rest, but for "obvious", see: https://fumbbl.com/help:LRB6DarkElfSurvey
(But remember, +stat can derail any of those.)
Many coaches would ignore their linos (after Kick(/Wrestle) and a DP) and concentrate 95% of all new spp and skills on their 5 best players. ymmv.
(End of 1st half (or your first drive), if you have surplus players, foul last 3 Turns w/ the DP. If he's banned, you still have 11 next Kick.)
| Killing_Time wrote: | | My next game is against a pretty useful Khemri team with 4 well skilled TGs and a Blodge/Fend/Sure Hands Throw-Ra who acts as the main (only) ball carrier. What's my best tactic against such a team? |
You have 2 advantages - mobility and agility, MA and 2+ dodges.
If he's disciplined, then just do as Licker says - maintain pairs in 2-deep stacks that are 3 squares apart, fall back 1 square at a time. If you want to give 2 squares on the sideline, that's not terrible against slow Khemri, and might even invite them to make a mistake.
Stay disciplined yourself, do NOT get out of position to make a blitz - even skip the blitz to maintain position. He'll either not score or get desperate about T6 and take a risk - that's when you can pounce (if you can score).
This should lead to a 1-0 win - which is still a "W".
Otoh, if he's NOT disciplined and you can separate (some of) his Tomb Guardians from the cage (and they're not too scary w/ MB &/or Break Tackle), tie them down with no-skill players and swarm the cage w/ your best players, where you have the advantage. If you can flush the ballcarrier, you should own him.
| Quote: | Next up after that is a very bashy chaos team.
Very. |
Rather than fire the 2nd Runner, this is a great chance to let him earn his pay AND get rid of him - let him be bait.
Bashy coaches live for the injury, so put him off to the side to draw his killer(s) either away from the play or where you can get a shot at them and take them out of the play for a turn or three, and let nature take its course. Better him than one of your other, more valuable AV 7 players. |
_________________
Let's go A.P.E.!
(...and what exactly do you think they do with all those dead players?...) |
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licker
Joined: Jul 10, 2009
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| Posted:
Apr 16, 2015 - 21:24 |
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| Quote: | | Rather than fire the 2nd Runner, this is a great chance to let him earn his pay AND get rid of him - let him be bait. |
I'm not opposed to this, but, the counter is that since it's L play you can control the inducements. I don't even remember what runners cost (90k?) but I'm assuming a one skill runner is adding ~100k to your TV. Lose that (because you are at 12 players) and you can significantly flip inducements around.
A wizard for or against you is as big a game changer as you will see. Of course the chaos come after the khemri, so you may decide to hold onto the runner for them, but it all depends on how the opponents rosters are constructed and what the TV difference winds up being. |
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Smeat
Joined: Nov 19, 2006
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Apr 16, 2015 - 21:51 |
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Only 80k (vs. 70k for a Lino), so as a 12th player not much diff than a Lino.
But, true, if that 100k makes the diff between a Babe and a Wizard, consider dumping him fast. :/ |
_________________
Let's go A.P.E.!
(...and what exactly do you think they do with all those dead players?...) |
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Killing_Time
Joined: Feb 12, 2015
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Apr 17, 2015 - 09:07 |
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Many thanks for all the very thoughtful replies.
I really appreciate it.
I definitely think I will hold on to the runner for the Khemri game, and I don't think our TVs are too different.
Depending on how the finances look I suspect I'll drop him for the Chaos match (assuming he's still alive) |
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the_Sage
Joined: Jan 13, 2011
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Apr 17, 2015 - 09:46 |
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AG5ST4 Runner: very nice, keeper. I had one roll that for his first 2 skills, gave him wrestle tackle (leap next) over blodge, but that's me. (I'm still secretly hoping for that moment where he's blitzed, the blitzer intercepts the dumpoff, and the runner wrestles down the blitzer, causing a turnover because he loses the ball  )
AG5 witch: excellent, jealous! leap, sidestep next, don't look back. Doubles go to jugger (imo) unless you still have 0 Mb (others disagree).
On that note, you REALLY want a MB tackler. I'd give Mb to the first doubles on any elf team.
2nd runner: even as leader caddy, not worth it imo. Too much AV7. But as smeat said; it's your team! Run 2 assassins if you like.
Also: play on FUMBBL! |
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Killing_Time
Joined: Feb 12, 2015
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Apr 17, 2015 - 10:01 |
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S4 Ag5 is really lovely I know.
And dump off has proven to be a lovely back up skill to keep hold of the ball when he's being ganged up on.
| the_Sage wrote: |
Also: play on FUMBBL! |
Hehe...
There have been murmurings amongst the group... |
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kilinrax
Joined: Jan 12, 2015
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Apr 17, 2015 - 12:18 |
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I had an +AG, Leap, +AG witch once, and honestly didn't find Leap gave her much extra manoeuvrability over AG6, which probably accounts for my resistance to the idea.
By a quick odds calculation, yours only has a 20.4% chance of rolling another +AG by legend, so if I were you I'd take Rat_Salat and Licker's advice and just give her Leap.
I'd still take SH on the runner, though. Please don't take NoS. |
Last edited by kilinrax on %b %17, %2015 - %13:%Apr; edited 1 time in total |
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Killing_Time
Joined: Feb 12, 2015
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Apr 17, 2015 - 12:44 |
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I think Leap on the Ag5 Witch is now a certainty, but I'm torn between Leap and SH on the runner.
Both arguments are compelling.
| kilinrax wrote: | | Please don't take NoS. |
OK, I promise. I won't.
 |
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bghandras
Joined: Feb 06, 2011
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Apr 17, 2015 - 13:57 |
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Sure hands then. Sure hands is always useful. Leap is situational. |
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Rat_Salat
Joined: Apr 22, 2011
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Apr 17, 2015 - 16:29 |
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| kilinrax wrote: | | I had an +AG, Leap, +AG witch once, and honestly didn't find Leap gave her much extra manoeuvrability over AG6, which probably accounts for my resistance to the idea. |
I've never been a big fan of AG6, and I've turned it down in favor of leap or sidestep in the past. It's a situational stat, only coming in to play when making extraordinarily difficult plays. I prefer the very reliable 2+ leap to the situational conversion of 3+ and 4+ pickups to 2+ and 3+ pickups, but the "don't turn down nuffle's gifts" crowd will disagree.
6AG without leap also can't jump over the LOS on a blitz, which is a pretty critical elf weapon. If you've already got leap, then AG6 is a plausible option, but I would honestly wager that taking a reroll ability like sure hands (or even the sub-par pro) would actually increase the % on those crazy plays by more than taking AG6 in the first place.
Since taking AG6 is all about improving percentages on nutty elf plays, it should help more than taking sure hands... but it often does not. The number of times when you actually need to leap into 4 tacklezones and pick up the ball should be fairly low. When it works, it's spectacular... but boring old sidestep or sure hands might be better skills over the long run. |
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licker
Joined: Jul 10, 2009
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Apr 17, 2015 - 16:50 |
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AG6 helps more with dodges through tackle zones than necessarily pick ups. Which is why coupling it with dodge (if you can avoid tackle, depends on matchup) makes it better than leap as far as mobility is concerned.
But, and this is also important, AG6 strikes so much fear into your opponents that they forget how to play correctly.
Believe me, I've seen this very effect
Of course that's also situational, but my opinion, elf teams should be doing crazy elf stuff, especially at higher TVs where those opportunities are usually the reason you wind up winning. You need that one opportunity on defense where you can land the blitz, scoop the ball, and pass it back out. AG6 helps with all of that, though obviously you can't blitz and pass with the same player, but you can blitz and scoop, which is sometimes enough. |
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bghandras
Joined: Feb 06, 2011
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Apr 17, 2015 - 17:02 |
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Whoever feels cognitive dissonance over the dilemma, should take ag6. Everybody else should stuck with ag5 plus a skill. |
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Smeat
Joined: Nov 19, 2006
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Apr 18, 2015 - 11:01 |
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| Killing_Time wrote: | I think Leap on the Ag5 Witch is now a certainty, but I'm torn between Leap and SH on the runner.
Both arguments are compelling. |
Once you have one Ag 5 Leaper, the marginal benefit of the 2nd diminishes. SH would let the Runner get the ball and Handoff/Pass to the Witch, who then Leaps for the impossible score (or back behind a screen to safety) - money.
It also means that annoying Gutter-Runner and War-Dancer Strippers are no longer the threat they might be.
And it will save you 1 RR every 3 games or so, or more if you get a lot of defensive turnovers (like, say, one might if they had a Leaping Witch...)
GL! |
_________________
Let's go A.P.E.!
(...and what exactly do you think they do with all those dead players?...) |
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Killing_Time
Joined: Feb 12, 2015
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Apr 20, 2015 - 09:40 |
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Played the game against Khemri last night and it all went pretty much according to script.
I got a 2-1 win, but at the cost of a dead lino (the rookie) and the star runner missing next game (apoth RR'd -1AV which I happily ignored).
Kicked first half, played a deep stand-off defence, giving him just a square or two per turn. Couldn't stop the cage from grinding up the pitch to score but had caused enough disruption to make him think twice about stalling the TD, which gave me 2 turns to score. Blitzed the Ag5 Witch through into midfield and got the 2tTD with a pass from the runner. Ag5 on both players just makes things so easy.
Receiving in the second half I was down to 9 on the pitch making it hard to protect my key players. He got a block off on my runner with a pomb tomb guardian (ouch)and the ball scattered around in a scrum for a couple of turns before popping out to be snaffled by a lurking lineman, who scampered off to score.
3 Turns for the return play, which for Khemri is always going to be pushing the boundaries of what's reasonable. He did manage a successful long pass from one of his throw-ras (suddenly it's like he want's to play elves), but the receiver was unsupported and I got the blitz and secured the ball. Even managed a cheeky last turn completion for a spot of gratuitous spp farming on the other witch.
So TDs for the Ag5 witch who will skill up on her next TD, and for the block Lino, taking him to 10spp.
MVP went to the rookie blitzer so a completion in the next game and I'll be able to blodge him up.
Altogether a pretty successful game, but I'm undermanned again for the upcoming chaos match, and fear suffering from the missing runner.
Replaced the dead lino. Not going to sell the second runner as I've got lower TV going into this match and may well be able to afford a wizard of my own for it regardless.
Thanks again for all the excellent advice. Great community here. |
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