Munkey
Joined: Nov 21, 2003
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 Posted:
May 11, 2004 - 00:23 |
 
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I'm hoping they make it to DivX first before we have to worry about different divisions.
I have a feeling there's going to be a lot of discussion and changes before anythings made official. |
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Stovaa
Joined: Apr 22, 2004
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| Posted:
May 11, 2004 - 00:35 |
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But if YOU are getting more money, so are your opponents... |
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GalakStarscraper
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
May 11, 2004 - 00:54 |
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| Michael_Warblade wrote: | | hoping fumbbl runs different divisions with different caps when these new rules come in |
That would be cool.
Galak |
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Buttercup
Joined: Sep 24, 2003
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| Posted:
May 11, 2004 - 00:57 |
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Seems to me using TR to give "kickers' or freebies or whatever they're called (sorry Galak) is a terrible idea for balancing things. Even though the STR calculation is clearly not perfect, it is a better predictor of success than pure TR.
For example, my elf team full of niggles and MNG has to play down in TR in order to have a balanced game - with the new rules this will allow people to freeboot a ton of extra dudes and get a wizard and get an apoth for free. Sure, this encourages retiring players but it's pretty tough to retire players when you only have 11 of them and you're out of cash.
At a minimum TR-(TR for MNG) should be used to calculate the freebies - preferrably TR-(TR for MNG + 1/6 TR for niggles 11/36 for two niggles etc.), or else this system is going to have HUGE imbalances for leagues where a team has gotten beaten up.
It's also going to favour bashy teams over weaker teams tremendously, especially the regen teams, because they're going to now be saving 50k per game over and above the usual cash advantage they have in the long run. Since cash=TR and high TR=bad, I can envision the undead/necro/etc. teams hiring wizards every game in the long run...
Is the balance-shifting intentional? If so, why?
Buttercup |
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SnakeSanders
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
May 11, 2004 - 01:05 |
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the str system on fumbbl would be quite difficult to use for two guys to play on the board! This rule in the vault is interesting and we should test it out before we slate it!  |
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neverborn
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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May 11, 2004 - 01:12 |
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I personally think regen isnt that much worse than a perminent apoth to begin with.
sure its only half the time, and you cant pick which player to make it work on... But it works everytime in the game, if it fails once, it is there next time. It also works on pushed into the crowd as well, which apoths don't work on.
And they are free, you have regen in your first match, any decent coach doesnt have an apoth in his starting line up...
Now that regen is still free, and apoths are 50k freeboot, this is a massive advantage to undead teams. It will mean more positional players sooner because they have more cash (I know everyone has more cash, but wood elves are going to have to get apoths more regularly if they want their players to live.)
Just seems like regen should cost something, maybe 10k per attempt, for the materials required to perform the operation, and you only pay if you choose to try and attempt it. This way it is ad hoc still, unlike apoths who need to be brought to the game, is a disadvantage because it requires undead teams to bring cash into a match, and is still cheaper than an apoth, but obviously not as good.
Fits in the fluff because they are spending the 10k on the material for the resurrect spell, and doesn't make the teams spend that money trying to keep a zombie alive but lets them spend it trying to keep a mummy alive.
Adds some risk, an extra dimension to the decisions made before the match (you could even leave some of your extra-money-to-use-on-freebooters-because-you-have-lower-tr money unspent and use that on apoth rolls.
Just seems regen is completely brokenly good now, thats all |
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Henrik_H
Joined: Feb 05, 2004
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| Posted:
May 11, 2004 - 02:40 |
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I see one problem with the sweeterners . The abillity to freeboot extra starplayers might be a fine equaliser but only for those teams that have them. For those teams that only have 1 or worse 0 starplayers to choose from it's no good at all (of course there are other stuff that can be used but I think the lack of stars will really hurt some teams. (Eg Pro elves, highelves, darkelves, amazons, norse, lizardmen)
IF this becomes official I hope that some new starplayers will be made so that each team has at least 2 to choose from.
PS Why has the norse team lost access to the Minotaur ? (I think that minotaurs fit the Norse more than ogres. I big frenzyed wild animal seems right at home among the berserkers) |
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GalakStarscraper
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
May 11, 2004 - 02:42 |
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| Henrik_H wrote: | IF this becomes official I hope that some new starplayers will be made so that each team has at least 2 to choose from.
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JJ said he was open to more stars if the rules work.
Galak |
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GalakStarscraper
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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May 11, 2004 - 02:44 |
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| neverborn wrote: | | Just seems regen is completely brokenly good now, thats all |
I just don't agree. I just went and looked. Only 11 of the top 60 Div X teams which used freebooted apothecaries are undead teams (Khemri, Undead, Necro).
Now granted 50k is larger ... but I just don't believe your own league results back up the statement about how wonderful Regen teams will become.
Galak |
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Azurus
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
May 11, 2004 - 02:44 |
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Regen will not be broken, not at all. You have to remember that by far the most uses of regen will be on skels or zombies, and who cares if they die or not?
Undead and Necro only have 4 players with regen who you'd care about losing anyway. (or for that matter, would have difficulty replacing). It's not likely you'll lose more than one of these four in a single game anyway, so I can't really so how it's better than an apoth.
Making the undead pay 10k a time for regen is just plain ridiculous.
I do agree that woodies are going to be hit pretty hard in comparison to the other teams, though. AV 7 and expensive players is going to stretch the cash a bit. But then I never liked woodies anyway. |
_________________
*This is a public safety announcement. Azurus is a cynical, sarcastic idiot. Please ignore any and everything he may say. Thank you for your attention.* |
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Azurus
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
May 11, 2004 - 02:47 |
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| GalakStarscraper wrote: | | I just don't agree. I just went and looked. Only 11 of the top 60 Div X teams which used freebooted apothecaries are undead teams (Khemri, Undead, Necro). |
I wouldn't advise using those stats yet Galak, there are so few games in divX these days that I wouldn't be surprised if half of those you are tlaking about haven't played a game since the rules were introduced.
Hopefully implementing the playtest vault rules in divX will revive it somewhat. |
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GalakStarscraper
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
May 11, 2004 - 02:55 |
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| Azurus wrote: | | Hopefully implementing the playtest vault rules in divX will revive it somewhat. |
All I can say is this. ... its in everyone best interest if folks actually playtest the rules. Several BBRC look here so if your own stats are misleading ... that's not going to help out.
Christer and Grumble may want to really talk about how to make Div X produce meaningful stats for these rules. Mixing in Old Div X games is really going to skew things.
Anyway to only see the impact of games when the rules are started to be tested.
Galak |
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Azurus
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
May 11, 2004 - 03:00 |
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| GalakStarscraper wrote: |
Christer and Grumble may want to really talk about how to make Div X produce meaningful stats for these rules. Mixing in Old Div X games is really going to skew things. |
I'm sure they will.
Putting these rules in place might present an ideal time to reset divX by chucking all the teams into U div. They're all legal there these days after all. |
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neverborn
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
May 11, 2004 - 03:49 |
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The other thing is Galak, I'm not talking about 50 game teams like in DivX
most real life tourneys are 7 games long, and in that period of time regen will prove far better than a freebooted 50k apoth... infact i'd be surprised if people took apoths at that price over a 7 game tourney.
While I don't mind if you're making rules for very long tourneys, I think you need to keep in mind where most of table top compeition takes place, and thats on a single long weekend tourney.
But Ive no doubt we will set up some Instant Tourneys on fumbbl and see what we can see.
I am looking forward to seeing the results of the vault, and I think it is a good idea. I still think regen is broken, but we will see if I am right or you are right by the end of the playtest period. But thats why its a good idea. |
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Michael_Warblade
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
May 11, 2004 - 06:23 |
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Im personally all for moving all the DivX teams to divU so we can test these new rules starting from fresh TR100 teams (it will encourage interest in the division and as everyone who plays it will be low TR for a few days at least it should give a fair indication of how long it takes with the new rules to build up a team and how fair various matchups will be)
It would also encourage people to retire their old divx teams which they never play anymore (like my elfs)
oh and of the top 20 teams all of them were there before the no aging rules in divX (although some of them have played games like my necros)
Michael |
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