| Poll |
| Should we change the rules to encourage more passing? |
| Yes |
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19% |
[ 15 ] |
| No |
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80% |
[ 62 ] |
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| Total Votes : 77 |
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Harad
Joined: May 11, 2014
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 Posted:
Jun 01, 2015 - 14:23 |
 
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Wreckage - I disagree, but not in a way that matters.
To try and expand on Matt's answer above:
I understand that Blood Bowl is thought to operate best between certain levels of team 'strengths'. As such you need mechanisms to prevent the teams becoming too powerful. A mechanism for this used to be the random ageing of players which would make you want to fire them. Another mechanism for this was fouling. Both of these mechanisms were reduced in effectiveness in the new rules (ageing was removed entirely). There was therefore a need for a mechanism to ensure sufficient levels of player attrition to prevent teams spiralling upwards in power. Piling on was made more effective to help with this (similarly claw access was increased and the skill modified to make sure that the attrition was not restricted to the low AV teams). |
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MattDakka
Joined: Oct 09, 2007
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| Posted:
Jun 01, 2015 - 14:24 |
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| markor wrote: | | Thanks, but what is/was CRP? |
CRP stands for Competition Rules Pack, the current Blood Bowl ruleset. |
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markor
Joined: May 07, 2015
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| Posted:
Jun 01, 2015 - 14:25 |
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And if my suggestions wouldn't achieve that, because I am not wise enough in the ways of blood bowl, I would like to hear suggestions for what would. |
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zakatan
Joined: May 17, 2008
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| Posted:
Jun 01, 2015 - 14:27 |
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| markor wrote: | | Wreckage, I explained why they are connected to running the clock down, you didnt explain why you think they aren't connected. |
Both Wreckage and I explained, that running down the clock is a vital strategy for teams without S access (Elves, mostly) and great passing game, even more than for those with S access. There's no link whatsoever between Guard/Piling on and stalling being a winning strategy, although it certainly helps some teams pulling it out. Remove Guard/Piling on alltogether from the rulebook, and clock control will still be the way to go.
Someone mentioned it earlier, you should join the Rush&Pass league. It is a League with some rules that really promote the gamestyle you seem to enjoy. |
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markor
Joined: May 07, 2015
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| Posted:
Jun 01, 2015 - 14:28 |
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Thanks for the explanation Harad, I guess it makes sense but as I play in ranked I would much rather there were some amazing teams that I could never beat (and would rarely play) than have all the games being played in same style. |
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MattDakka
Joined: Oct 09, 2007
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| Posted:
Jun 01, 2015 - 14:31 |
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If you want to win you have to consider passing as a plan B, even with passing teams.
If you play a running game (i.e. picking up the ball and running to the opponent's End Zone with a screen of team mates protecting the ball carrier, without passing) you are going to have more control on the ball and on the pace of the game.
If you pass often and without a real reason don't expect to win a lot of games. |
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markor
Joined: May 07, 2015
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| Posted:
Jun 01, 2015 - 14:31 |
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There's no link whatsoever between Guard/Piling on and stalling being a winning strategy, although it certainly helps some teams pulling it out
You seem to be contradicting yourself here, Zakatan. As I said earlier, if these measure would not be sufficient, how about suggesting some that would? |
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zakatan
Joined: May 17, 2008
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| Posted:
Jun 01, 2015 - 14:33 |
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| markor wrote: | | And if my suggestions wouldn't achieve that, because I am not wise enough in the ways of blood bowl, I would like to hear suggestions for what would. |
There have been a number of suggestions throughout the years. Many of them propose random length of each half, so that coaches can't never know how many turns left are there, hence can't play the clock the same way.
Off the hook, making passing less prone to critical failure would be the way to go. Yet, fast scoring won't be a thing unless major changes happen. |
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Harad
Joined: May 11, 2014
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| Posted:
Jun 01, 2015 - 14:36 |
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Markor I guess that from your point of view the issue is therefore balance. As so many games are played on Fumbbl the group tends to fairly quickly identify the optimum strategies and then as most people like winning these strategies spread through the group. However the rules are designed there are likely to be imbalances and whilst there will always be outliers most people in the group will gravitate to what appears to be the most effective solution. |
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markor
Joined: May 07, 2015
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| Posted:
Jun 01, 2015 - 14:37 |
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There seem to be two counter-arguments here:
1. Passing is not effective. I know this, that is why I'm suggesting rule changes to make it more effective.
2. The rule changes I proposed would not achieve this. This might be the case, so I would like to hear suggestions for what rule changes would achieve this. |
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Wreckage
Joined: Aug 15, 2004
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| Posted:
Jun 01, 2015 - 14:40 |
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| markor wrote: | | Wreckage, I explained why they are connected to running the clock down, you didnt explain why you think they aren't connected. |
Yes sorry of course, I have been here for too long.
Why is running the clock down a good strategy?
Because playing offense is easier than playing defense. When you are past the beginner stage it is easier to protect the ball than to snatch it.
That is the case because of the players inherent attributes, like possession of tackle zones, capability of adding assists, incapability of opponent players to dodge past said zones.
These are fundamental mechanics of the game.
Any zombie team possess those capabilities but Elves possess those capabilities on a much higher level. So although you may think Elves may be especially predestined for passing game they are even more predestined to easily maintain good position and do a successful grind.
there are several ways to accomplish what you are suggesting, nerfing bash isn't one of them tho.
And on the other hand that passing isn't done isn't directly tied to the grinding game or how we call it 'the stalling game' either.
Of course it's tricky to stall and pass at the same time. But you see, even if stalling didn't make sense in BB I'd still not be passing because.. passing requires several dice rolls, every dice roll comes with exposure of the ball and when it comes to playing a good offense, no matter if its an 8 turn stall or a 2-4 turn score, I'm going to want to use the safest possible route for my carrier to the end zone i can.
And ideally that means not doing any dice rolls with him at all.
I just move him and have everybody else do the hard stuff so that a turnover won't mean that I drop the ball just at the same time.
Now, what you also need to understand is this: Those things have been in this game like this forever. The balance of the game has a lot to do with how it accomodates the stalling game and for coaches the real challenge is really about how you prevent somebody from doing so.
So if you for instance go and do a 2 turn score and he then continues to stall the rest of the game, it means he has already beat you. He may not even win due to bad dice but strategically he has succeeded in making you pass too early.
You on the other hand if you want to incorporate such a strategy as short offenses, have to shift your focus on playing a strong defense.
As a matter of fact, doing a simple pass and score is not particularly hard or does require a lot of thinking.
But if you do such a strategy you have to think about what strategies you can employ to steal the ball from your opponent on his offense or to render his stalling game useless. To mention are here strategies like leaping, one-turn-scoring and actually also to just kill everyone.
So as you can see the goals you are suggesting, ultimatively would change the way people play and enjoy the game, how people think about the game. Because if your changes would work (which they wouldn't), all these considerations wouldn't matter anymore. |
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markor
Joined: May 07, 2015
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| Posted:
Jun 01, 2015 - 14:41 |
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Well, I didn't think anyone would be up for major changes. I think the changes I suggested would have some effect, so that would help the situation somewhat. I would basically just like to have classic passing tds scored against me occasionally. |
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Dalfort
Joined: Jun 23, 2008
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| Posted:
Jun 01, 2015 - 14:44 |
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I love passing (Link to my Statistics) but even after 3037 games (over 7 years) I have only managed to throw 4832 (Avg 1.59/game) and some of those include playing in the Rush and Pass league zakatan told you about. Now same period of games I have thrown 100782 Blocks (Avg 33.18/game).
The Block count for me is low because I started with the premise that I should play the way I liked and not give stuff about losing streaks that numbered tens of games as long as I was having fun. (Treeman and a Kroxi with 30+ passes is fun for me!) but even I more recently have been playing a more "standard" game with passing being a low priority action for scoring or SPP farming.
Enjoy your eggs your way but don't tell other people how to eat theirs, I hope that we meet on the pitch someday so we can have a funny game of Blood Bowl randomness with unexpected throwers emerging from strange dark places!
Take care Dalfort.
Edit to repair link. |
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Last edited by Dalfort on %b %01, %2015 - %14:%Jun; edited 1 time in total |
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markor
Joined: May 07, 2015
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| Posted:
Jun 01, 2015 - 14:44 |
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Wreckage you didn't refer to the changes I was suggesting in your explanation. As I said above, I only want to make passing relatively more effective. |
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JanMattys
Joined: Feb 29, 2004
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| Posted:
Jun 01, 2015 - 14:47 |
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The way I see it:
1- Blood Bowl is not a football simulator. It is a tactical game of resource allocation and risk management.
2- The less risks you take in bb, the better you are as a coach. The most basic passing action requires at the very least two rolls (pass/catch), and potentially quite a few more than that depending on the skills and players involved. As such, it will never be a "plan A" course of action as opposed to (for example) running the ball with no dice involved.
3- Clock management is a vital part the tactical aspect of bb, and it is not a bad thing. It adds depth, if anything. If they stall against you it is because you are not dangerous enough. I can assure you that stalling against the top coaches on this site is an achievement in itself. Stalling requires planning, pitch control, nerves of steel and skill. Opening up a hole on any defence for a receiver to run through is - at least in my opinion - quite a lot easier.
4- Passing play is also much more prone to luck: blocking your way to victory (all other things equal) requires 2d blocks. Passing and catching, even in ideal conditions, are 2+ rolls that each fail 1/36 of the time. This means that even in the most perfect circumstances, an elven passing play fails 1/18 of the times. Which is like, real bad. Blood Bowl is nicer the farther you stay from potential bad luck. That's why a passing play is never the Plan A choice, no matter how good your team is at it.
5- In the original post you talk about flexibility. Flexibility is a nice concept, but it's not the key one. They concept is "effectiveness". Everybody strives for effectiveness. Nerf things you don't like, and people will find another effective niche and camp there. What you ask for seems more of a "Nerf everything I don't like so the effective niche is right where I want it". That's not the way to attain diversity, imho. |
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Last edited by JanMattys on %b %01, %2015 - %14:%Jun; edited 1 time in total |
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