tmoila
Joined: Nov 25, 2012
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 Posted:
Aug 20, 2015 - 21:30 |
 
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CPOMB is not broken. Lack of equally damaging counterpart is.
Buff fouling 2015.
Remove spiraling expenses 2015.
Nerf ball. |
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gg |
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Oly1987
Joined: Oct 02, 2006
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| Posted:
Aug 20, 2015 - 21:42 |
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I think Human catchers should have the same statline as a norse runner (7/3/3/7) with maybe Dodge and catch for 90k if 0-4 or 80k if 0-2
Amazons should inherit human catchers 8/2/3/7 seems to fit zons better, maybe +1 ma on the blitzers for an increased price to give the team some variety.
I like regen on snotlings, actually a really good idea.
take ST access off longbeards maybe if you think they are THAT overpowered?
I think pact big guys and 'positionals' should get mutations on normals and marauders should get them on doubles. apart from that pretty good
Slaan blitzers are very expensive for what you get to start but good skill access, still unsure if they need changing |
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seanh1986
Joined: Jul 16, 2005
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Aug 20, 2015 - 21:54 |
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The issue with dwarf is that Block is the arguably the best skill in the game and Tackle automatically renders dodge useless. The fact that they by default get to spam them both makes them unbalanced. When a player starts with a particular skill it only costs them 10k TV whereas normally it would be 20k TV... So, each of those dwaves get Block/Tackle for the price of 20k when normally it would cost them 40k. That makes them extremely TV efficient.
I think if you changed it so longbeards didn't have tackle but only Block, they'd be 10k cheaper but wouldn't start with tackle. Conversely, Blitzers could start with tackle for 10k more expensive. This would still be a TV efficient team but it would be far more balanced, in my opinion.
Right now, I feel dwarf vs teams with dodge heavily favours dwarf too much. |
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Sutherlands
Joined: Aug 01, 2009
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| Posted:
Aug 20, 2015 - 22:12 |
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| footballolb16 wrote: | | When a player starts with a particular skill it only costs them 10k TV whereas normally it would be 20k TV |
Not sure where you've gotten this from. |
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mrt1212
Joined: Feb 26, 2013
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| Posted:
Aug 20, 2015 - 22:15 |
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| tmoila wrote: | CPOMB is not broken. Lack of equally damaging counterpart is.
Buff fouling 2015.
Remove spiraling expenses 2015.
Nerf ball. |
Co-Sign |
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bghandras
Joined: Feb 06, 2011
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| Posted:
Aug 20, 2015 - 22:52 |
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| tmoila wrote: | CPOMB is not broken. Lack of equally damaging counterpart is.
Buff fouling 2015.
Remove spiraling expenses 2015.
Nerf ball. |
Attrition is already too high for linos over 60k. |
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pythrr
Joined: Mar 07, 2006
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Aug 20, 2015 - 23:04 |
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Re: Longbeard?
Remove tackle as a starting skill. Block + AV9 is good enough. |
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seanh1986
Joined: Jul 16, 2005
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| Posted:
Aug 20, 2015 - 23:04 |
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| Sutherlands wrote: | | footballolb16 wrote: | | When a player starts with a particular skill it only costs them 10k TV whereas normally it would be 20k TV |
Not sure where you've gotten this from. |
It's roughly based on the formula used to determine starting costs of a player relative to a human lineman
The human lineman is considered the base value:
6/3/3/8, G access for 50k
Any +stat gives +10k and -stat gives -10k, any skill gives +10k and access to new skills gives +10k.
For example,
Dwarf Blockers: 4/3/2/9, Block, Tackle, Thick, Skulls, GS access, 70k
50k (base) - 20k (Ma) - 10k (Ag) + 10k (Av) + 30k (skills) + 10k (S access) = 70k
Werewolves: 8/3/3/8, Claw, Frenzy, Regenerate, GA Access = 120k
50k + 30k (Ma) + 30k (Skills) + 10 (Ag access) = 120k
Skeleton: 5/3/2/7, Thick Skull, Regenerate = 40k
50k - 10k - 10k - 10k + 20k = 40k
I don't know if it works for every player/position, but roughly speaking, starting with a skill is worth roughly 10k TV whereas picking it later costs 20k or 30k depending on if its a double or not |
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Macabeo
Joined: Feb 13, 2011
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Aug 20, 2015 - 23:12 |
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| bghandras wrote: | | Generally killstack is too strong. Most of the problems are a byproduct. |
I took only one post for CPOMB to appear :/
Yes, I know CPOMB has a major impact on everything BB, but there are quite a few orthogonal issues - like Slann Blitzers being too inefficient at the beginning, that has nothing to do with CPOMB.
| Several posters wrote: | | ...mass tackle in Dwarf teams... |
Many many people dislike this, but I'm kind of on the fence. True, it leads to uneven match ups, this is very bad. However, abundant Tackle is the only way to cull the power of Dodge, and having rosters with Tackle from the get go is the most straightforward way of implementing it. Maybe if it was more evenly distributed among different rosters instead of being a purely Dwarf thing, who knows.
Also, 60k Longbeards are very efficient against teams with no A access, this may have some impact at low TV as well
| Several posters wrote: | | ...Decay on Tomb Guardians... |
Yeah, the problem here is the difficulty of developing the team. Key positionals shouldn't have Decay, especially in teams that are not very strong at low TV.
| Fabulander wrote: | | Macabeo, I agree that the human catchers are a little underpowered (or maybe just a tad overprized), but why don't you think that they are consistent with the background? Both slann, orcs, wood elves and skaven have players of the same race whose S and A is different from the template, if that's what you meant. |
Well, there's no reason why they are weaker than High Elf and Pro Elf catchers, and also in the lore Humans are supposed to be more resilient than Elves, Skaven and Goblins (no idea about Slann). Many people say they should be ST3, among which I count myself. |
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Sutherlands
Joined: Aug 01, 2009
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| Posted:
Aug 21, 2015 - 00:03 |
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| footballolb16 wrote: | | Sutherlands wrote: | | footballolb16 wrote: | | When a player starts with a particular skill it only costs them 10k TV whereas normally it would be 20k TV |
Not sure where you've gotten this from. |
It's roughly based on the formula used to determine starting costs of a player relative to a human lineman |
Or you can use an actual, real formula, that's not completely made up:
https://fumbbl.com/index.php?name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=20129 |
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MattDakka
Joined: Oct 09, 2007
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Aug 21, 2015 - 00:55 |
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| footballolb16 wrote: |
My argument about decay making Khemri unplayable was not in a particular match but in the long-run. Without MB, they are very slow developing and with Decay they do not last. It's just a terrible combination. |
In the long run, if you are referring to league play, they are perfecly playable, in league play Khemri suffers more Wizards and one turners than Clawpomb I think. Clawpomb is generally less rampant in private leagues, unlike Black Box.
If you are referring to perpetual online play then you should play to win the match you are playing, and having super developed Guardians would lead to high TV matches, which are haunted by clawpomb teams.
The TV bloat generated by too many skills on Guardians (I think that Guardians are probably best with 2-3 skills, Guard and Mighty Blow, Block if you are lucky) is detrimental for the team.
Don't get me wrong, I'd prefer Guardians without Decay, but I could live with it if Clawpomb were nerfed.
| footballolb16 wrote: |
Decay makes Khemri unsustainable at high TV because you need to constantly be retraining new Tomb Guards. |
Only if you play often vs Clawpomb teams, otherwise the level of attrition is not so terrible.
I checked both my league and Black Box Khemri teams, I lost 1 Guardian every 8 matches on average.
The problem is losing Guardians DURING the match, not in the long run.
You can replace them and 1-2 unskilled Guardians are not a tragedy, the important thing is having a working team. |
Last edited by MattDakka on %b %21, %2015 - %01:%Aug; edited 2 times in total |
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WhatBall
Joined: Aug 21, 2008
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| Posted:
Aug 21, 2015 - 01:01 |
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Fix the flaws in the rules before the rosters... |
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JimmyFantastic
Joined: Feb 06, 2007
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Aug 21, 2015 - 01:25 |
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Sorry Matt but you are totally wrong here. Decay is just a terrible, un-fun, pointless mechanic. |
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Pull down the veil - actively bad for the hobby! |
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MattDakka
Joined: Oct 09, 2007
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Aug 21, 2015 - 04:19 |
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| JimmyFantastic wrote: | | Sorry Matt but you are totally wrong here. Decay is just a terrible, un-fun, pointless mechanic. |
I'm not endorsing Decay, I'm against it and I would remove it, but it's not as terrible, un-fun, pointless mechanic as clawpomb spam.
Decay is terrible if you are a pixelhugger and you want to pimp your Guardians for RPG reasons.
What it's important is winning the match, something hard to do if you lose 1 or more Guardians, who are supposed to be the spearheads of the team.
Decay doesn't affect the chance of regenerating an injury, although it might make it worse when regeneration fails (but if regeneration fails you are stuffed for that match anyway, no matter if your Guardian is just Badly Hurt). |
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harvestmouse
Joined: May 13, 2007
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Aug 21, 2015 - 10:03 |
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| WhatBall wrote: | | Fix the flaws in the rules before the rosters... |
This massively. The thing is, you could look at things and say that this needs fixing, and we could do this. However a lot of ideas are to get around other flaws, band tape if you will. Tweak the rules, then look at the rosters.
The 2 I would touch (for balance reasons are Zons and Ogres). However there's an argument that neither of these teams are really sortable without a major rethink.
So for now I'd make Zon linos 60k and give blitzers AV 8. I think both of those changes fit perfectly fine. However saying that, blitzers usually have more speed than av (over linos) so 7 3 3 7 would be better in that regard.
Ogres, probably make it simple for not and give them back goblins. They've still be nerfed since lrb 4, and it's not exactly like the ruled the roost there. Goblins fit with the BloodBowl theme, where a Gnoblars are a bit too Warhammer.
| Resarf wrote: | | Regenerate on the snotlings! |
Yeah, I think that's fine. We'd go back with to the A Snotling isn't a snotling, but an area that snotlings exist. I.e. you can injure a snotling, but theres always another one. I don't really see a point in them right now, they don't fit Ogres particularly well, and were obviously brought in as a nerf. I'd take them out for now.
I play a Troll/Snoting (everything with regen) roster. It's quite fun, but super weak, however that's their niche. As well as being a roster with regen and an apothecary, which actually makes them super tough (on the old client anyway, where regen was done before the apo).
I'd also look at titchy. Give it a bit more benefit. The throwing table maybe as they used to do.
| footballolb16 wrote: | | Dwarves: Mass tackle gives their linemen too much bang for their buck to start. Maybe give the blitzers tackle by default instead? That would also make Dwarf vs. dodge less one-sided |
Ahhh but Dwarfs don't have linemen! The position of Dwarfs (and elves) in the basic fantasy universe is that they are dying out. Holding on to traditions and morale codes that are killing them off. Only surviving because they are physically superior specimens than the more prevalent races (that being humans and orcs). So this should be portrayed, however the tackle is a bit weird, but does portray the annoyingness of Dwarfs.
I'm using Dwarfs with a 'Lineman' position right now. 60k, no tackle and actually they're surprisingly weak. So maybe make the standard Dwarf a lineman and add the Longbeard as a 'semi' positional. I prefer longbeard as a term as it's really means 'a dwarf with a wealth of experience'. Which learning tackle probably would be. Blocker's suggest being built as a road block. Extra strength/av less ma, which they are not. So possibly different to any other roster, you have an experienced player as a 'semi positional'. 0-16 linemen/0-4 longbeards. A problem here, is you then need to bring CDs into line somehow.
| footballolb16 wrote: | | Khemri: Decay makes them unplayable. The key to a good Khemri team *should* be the tomb guardians and having a solid group of 4. That is almost never possible due to Decay. |
Hmmm personally I don't see decay as that big a problem, but then again I'm also surprised that lrb 5+ niggles results in auto retirement. I think we've got into the mindset that we can rebuild that exact same player due to the amount of games we can play, so it's better to cut any perm.
I like having decay as a tool. I wouldn't want to lose it. I'm not sure why TKs have it and Mummies don't tbh. I think fluffwise they need to clean this up a bit. A lot of the recent roster changes have messed with the fluff too much. I think I'd like to keep decay but tone it down a little. Generally, ST 5 guys were thought to be too good in the resurrection format, so we're living with that.
| footballolb16 wrote: | | Undead: If ghouls had regenerate they would be more viable at high TV, but may not work with the theme |
Yeah, a deffo no, they're living. This symbolizes that (the BBRC did buckle with wolves, but that's ok they're supernatural). I think the problem here is with the rules not the player and the efficient roster. Fix that, and if you have the money, you'll take them.
| footballolb16 wrote: | [*] Claw is a little weird, it's strange how it has no effect against av 7 but somehow has effect vs av 9... Because clearly if you had low armor a claw would be even more effective! Regardless, it is too powerful vs high armor. I would say reduce armor by 2 to a minimum of 7 and THEN apply modifiers like +AV. Gives players with 10 av (e.g., treemen) protection and gives players who take +AV extra protection
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Yeah, this is a good change. It also gives a bit more reason for taking AV as a skill.
| Oly1987 wrote: | I think Human catchers should have the same statline as a norse runner (7/3/3/7) with maybe Dodge and catch for 90k if 0-4 or 80k if 0-2
Amazons should inherit human catchers 8/2/3/7 seems to fit zons better, maybe +1 ma on the blitzers for an increased price to give the team some variety. |
Firstly the Norse runner needs to go. It's a real messy positional. Maybe actually the Norse thrower needs to go and the Norse runner replaces him and loses dauntless and agility access and gains pass access. Them maybe 4 blitzers again.
If Zons got that catcher, would they take them? Certainly no more than one, as one saving grace for the human catcher is that he comes with dodge on a roster that has no other A access.
I do like the idea though of giving him (well now her) to the Zon roster, but I think it makes the call even stronger that: catchers are ag4 across the board. So 8 2 4 7. Remembering that because the rest of the roster has dodge it's not as powerful (even though you're adding a lot of speed and ag).
7 3 3 7 as a catcher is all wrong in my opinion. I think giving the extra ag is fine, so keeping them the same. 8 2 4 7, but very pricey meaning you wouldn't usually see 4 on a team.
| Oly1987 wrote: | | take ST access off longbeards maybe if you think they are THAT overpowered? |
I don't think so, as I put before, this portrays their 'superior humanoid' bit. I think the tackle part is probably the key.
| Oly1987 wrote: | | Slaan blitzers are very expensive for what you get to start but good skill access, still unsure if they need changing |
Yeah....I really like Slann's portrayal. It's a very good conversion from the 2nd edition list. They all are really Pact and Underworld as well. I'm not against your Pact change mind, but I think changing POMB fixes most of the problems there anyway, and if you did that, they probably wouldn't take many mutations. I like the weirdness of Slann, but why would you take a blitzer in the resurrection format?! A shame, but maybe they need looking into a bit. |
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