harvestmouse
Joined: May 13, 2007
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Feb 15, 2016 - 07:25 |
 
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Wow, there's a lot here... Here is the rule and why we have the rule.
Blood Bowl has a rule that turns should take no longer than 4 minutes. This is to keep games fluid, flowing and to prevent any sort of time 'gamesmanship'.
However BB is a game intended for the TT. FUMBBL and the FFB client try to replicate that as closely as possible however online play does have some differences to offline play.
So we must look at the interpretation of the rule and how that affects online play. On the TT there are no connection issues and your opponent will be there usually without any issues. However if they had an emergency call or a doorbell rang you cannot expect them to give priority to a game over a real life event. In these situations it's better to pause the game rather than still enforce the timeout rule. Simply, this is not what the rule was intended for and until "The 4 minute timeout rule has some interesting implications. E.g. if you are in a house on fire it becomes an extremely exciting game of bottle to see who leaves the house (and gets timedout first)." gets added to the rules, the FUMBBL interpretation of the rule in an online environment will stay.
FUMBBL's interpretation (or what we came up with) was any player that has not done any action for more than 2 minutes is considered absent. An absent player may not be timed out. However, any play intentionally delaying play is also breaking FUMBBL's rules.
How does this actually work? Well that's difficult...........and not. We go back to FUMBBL's first and golden rule. Don't be a dick. This in reality is the only rule of FUMBBL. Don't try to gain an advantage by nefarious means. If you do, you will be caught eventually and you will be hammered.
If an opponent is absent for 15 minutes or more, consider him disconnected and you may follow the disconnection procedures. If you feel your opponent is using this as a 'tactic' contact a member of staff. If they are caught they will be banned.
So.......back to the OP, yes you have broken the rules. Your best bet is to contact the admins, explain what has happened and that you were unaware of the rule. A good idea would be to link to this forum topic.
| NerdBird wrote: | | You really are not supposed to time somebody out unless you have warned them. |
This is not a rule, just a policy a lot of players use on the site. Personally, I dislike our current clients way of doing things over the old client. For me, I find timing out in any situation a bit gamey. A warning means little as the timer is a warning.
Naming and shaming is most definitely against the site rules.
| mrt1212 wrote: | | Uedder wrote: | If your opponent is playing his turn and has been playing for 4 minutes, then you can timeout. Warning is courtesy.
IF your opponent isn't playing and is irresponsive in the chat, then you must assume his cat was on fire, so timing him out is against the rules.
Likewise, if your opponent warns you he will be "afk" or "brb" then you're not allowed to time him out.
Also, read the rules. That's a rule. |
So you're telling me you'd rather be antisocial than show courtesey, because you interpret the rules to allow you leeway in doing so? You're a peach.
What's the harm in a warning? |
I can't see the harm in what Uedder wrote there. I honestly don't feel it's really more courteous to give a warning. The timer is the warning. I can see why you'd timeout a player that is slow every turn. It's your right to timeout players full stop. However the timer is there to tell me when my 4 minutes are up, a warning by the other player feels like his 'really I'm a nice guy sales pitch' or a earn a free 'be an arse' card.
It's one of those things that has become common practice as in one of the dozens or so previous forum topics on timing out came up more and more coaches took up the '1 warning timeout' policy.
Personally I think that online play is different enough that the rule cannot be used as it was intended. I'd rather go back to the old client's way of doing things. 4 minutes per turn plus a 10 minute bank. With added, after 1 timeout the game is automatically paused when the timedout player's next turn starts. He or a member of staff then has to unpause it. |
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harvestmouse
Joined: May 13, 2007
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Feb 15, 2016 - 07:28 |
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| JellyBelly wrote: | If a sudden RL event comes up, wouldn't it be better to just disconnect from the game entirely (after giving a quick heads-up in the chat, if you can)? That way, at least your clock isn't running down and if you don't make it back within 15 minutes, your opponent can have the game aborted.
Or, is that also against the rules? |
This isn't against the rules. There are a few problems with doing this though and therefore it cannot be considered as a mandatory requirement. |
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Matthueycamo
Joined: May 16, 2014
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Feb 15, 2016 - 07:48 |
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Sometimes one has a turn that takes 90 seconds and sometimes a really difficult turn that takes longer. Any time saved in the preceding turn could be added to the next turn. That would be an incentive to play fast most of the game to save time for the one or two difficult turns one usually faces in a game. In general could lead to faster play over all as there is a point to finishing your turn before 4 minutes. The rules under the old client seem pretty good idea with respect to this.
Though to be honest hawk like clock watching unless one is tight for time is to me against why I play Blood Bowl. If you are into the game chatting away with witty banter the game clock is not something to even think about either side of the ball. Most turns are quite a bit shorter than four minutes anyway so watching for the one turn that is not seems a bit douchey to me. 32x4 plus a few mins for setting up for the kick off is over two hours so if the game is taking considerably less than that really nothing to moan about and timeout unless every single turn the opposition takes is considerably over four minutes. |
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awambawamb
Joined: Feb 17, 2008
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Feb 15, 2016 - 08:58 |
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there are weird coaches around that would just sit there for three minutes and then make their move in the last minute. I call this high-ranking dickery.
do they get adrenaline by knowing they have only one minute left?
do they get pleasure in losing their time and YOUR time?
I guess we'll never know the answers.
IRL, I'd just call the game off, going towards the club's fridge and pop open a beer. he walks out satisfied over an easy win at a TT game, I walk out recheged with booze. cya l8 allig8r. |
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Wreckage
Joined: Aug 15, 2004
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Feb 15, 2016 - 09:10 |
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| awambawamb wrote: |
do they get adrenaline by knowing they have only one minute left? |
Well, I do know I play a lot better when I take the time to think about what I do first before I start acting. That being said, being aware of the 4 minutes impending doom closing in on me I usually don't think too much and just play. It's not like the timer warns you when you approach the 4. But you do get 4 minutes per turn, so afaic if you play your turns in 2 you're just not using the resources available to you efficiently. |
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Verminardo
Joined: Sep 27, 2006
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Feb 15, 2016 - 09:12 |
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Well if a coach does nothing for 3 minutes and then makes his moves in 1 minute, there may be two possible explanations. Firstly, he has really been thinking this long. Because some coaches really try to plan all of their turn ahead to find the best way to go about it. Or sometimes a situation is just really tricky. I had this recently when I had my opponent out-cas'ed and out-pow'ed and locked down, and he was trying to figure something out that he could do. He only had to move 3 pieces but he still went over 4 minutes. We also chatted a bit during those 4 minutes so I did not time him out. (That's a general rule I go by, if there was chat during the turn, I won't punish my opponent for being fun and chatting during his turn by timing him out.) It can sometimes be annoying if coaches overthink all their turns, especially when they are already in a superior position, but it's most certainly not "high-ranking dickery".
Secondly, though, there are the coaches who appear to be doing other activities in parallel (many have admitted to that on the forums, too). So basically they finish their turn, then go to another browser window while you play, and when they hear the "bell" don't return to the game immediately because they know they've got 4 minutes and only need 1 or 2. If this happens once or twice it's no biggie, especially, as someone else already pointed out, when my turn was shorter than expected due to early turnover. But if it happens all the time, or if you frequently get stuck waiting for your opponent to decide on using the Apoth or Side Step or whatever, that is indeed bad form. |
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bghandras
Joined: Feb 06, 2011
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Feb 15, 2016 - 09:28 |
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"We also chatted a bit during those 4 minutes so I did not time him out. (That's a general rule I go by, if there was chat during the turn, I won't punish my opponent for being fun and chatting during his turn by timing him out.)"
This is a very good policy, i use it too. |
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ArrestedDevelopment
Joined: Sep 14, 2015
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Feb 15, 2016 - 10:07 |
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I don't tend to time people out if they have been chatting during their turn. I'm not playing in a tournament, it seems pretty needless. I'm very much here to play a game of bloodbowl, and if it goes my way win. Rather than just being here to win. As such, I value social interaction of any kind a bit higher than regimental adhesion to game mechanics.
That said, I've played a number of opponents (most of whom with CRs approaching, at or above 170), for whom taking the full 4 minutes (and any extra you might give them) per turn is policy. I have, I believed timed one person out on fumbbl, for precisely the above, combined with absolute silence... once he broke the 5min mark.
Its a conundrum. I can safely say in my own personal experience, I do not realise how long my own turns take until I look at the clock and hit end turn. Sometimes it is sub 1min, more often, after initial turns, is it is 2min+ tending towards 3min. On a particularly hard turn, I will get towards, and occasionally past 4min myself. I try not to do this with regularity - but there is psychology involved: I am much more likely to overthink my turns if I perceive my opponent to be better (either because he has so far outplayed me, or based on history), or if my opponent is taking a long time, I will end up walking one of Borges' labyrinths when it comes to my decision making, constantly rethinking a path that endlessly loops into a coil of nothing. There is also a further factor of whether I know my opponent or not - if I do, it usually has a direct effect on my play, simply because I am usually able to understand exactly what they propose to do each turn, and I will then spend a little longer planning to cover in case I was incorrect.
Even taking all that into account - I enjoy spec'ing games with other people there to point things out, because it gives me the opportunity to guess plays in advance (by better coaches), but also because for me, every opponent's turn seems to move through time like treacle. Having other people to chat to eases this. You could take one minute and for me it feels like four. Four minutes feels like an aeon. I am not longer interested in the game at that point, and if you do it multiple times a game, I will likely just want it over, because it feels like punishment. This is especially true if you continually select, deselect and then finally select the same players to check block-die (they've not changed), or start move actions you then reconsider.
There is much to be said for not timing people out. But if you are a silent opponent who has said nothing aside from "hi glhf" (which, is utterly meaningless, and just shows that you have a modicum of cultural nous which has permitted you the ability to produce monosyllabic grunts in order to obtain basic social acceptance), and then proceed to take 4min every turn, going over occasionally, and repeatedly stop-starting moves, checking block die, and, a personal "favourite", always making sure you are on the last man at 3min 55s, and still taking 30+ seconds to move him... you are not playing this game, you are turning it into a skinner box without any external observation. |
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Last edited by ArrestedDevelopment on %b %15, %2016 - %10:%Feb; edited 3 times in total |
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koadah
Joined: Mar 30, 2005
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Feb 15, 2016 - 10:11 |
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| Uedder wrote: | ...
IF your opponent isn't playing and is irresponsive in the chat, then you must assume his cat was on fire, so timing him out is against the rules... |
Really? I thought that the coach had to indicate the they were going AFK.
Where is this rule written?
| paradocks wrote: | | I've had the timeout used against me on nearly every single occasion in pretty much every single game I've ever played. It's strange how I read in the forums that what I've experienced isn't common practice. |
Dude, you must be mighty slow.
I have never timed anyone out in 1225 games. |
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harvestmouse
Joined: May 13, 2007
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Feb 15, 2016 - 10:22 |
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| koadah wrote: | | Uedder wrote: | ...
IF your opponent isn't playing and is irresponsive in the chat, then you must assume his cat was on fire, so timing him out is against the rules... |
Really? I thought that the coach had to indicate the they were going AFK. |
No they do not. 2 minutes of inactivity. |
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koadah
Joined: Mar 30, 2005
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Feb 15, 2016 - 11:56 |
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| harvestmouse wrote: | | koadah wrote: | | Uedder wrote: | ...
IF your opponent isn't playing and is irresponsive in the chat, then you must assume his cat was on fire, so timing him out is against the rules... |
Really? I thought that the coach had to indicate the they were going AFK. |
No they do not. 2 minutes of inactivity. |
Where is this rule written? |
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O[L]C 2016 Swiss! - April ---- All Star Bowl - Teams of Stars - 2 more teams needed |
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harvestmouse
Joined: May 13, 2007
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Feb 15, 2016 - 12:03 |
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I don't have an answer for that, do you? In my eyes it's more it's not a rule that they have to let you know, therefore not written. |
Last edited by harvestmouse on %b %15, %2016 - %12:%Feb; edited 1 time in total |
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Wreckage
Joined: Aug 15, 2004
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Feb 15, 2016 - 12:04 |
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| koadah wrote: | | harvestmouse wrote: | | koadah wrote: | | Uedder wrote: | ...
IF your opponent isn't playing and is irresponsive in the chat, then you must assume his cat was on fire, so timing him out is against the rules... |
Really? I thought that the coach had to indicate the they were going AFK. |
No they do not. 2 minutes of inactivity. |
Where is this rule written? |
Haven't heared of it either, but it does make a lot of sense, doesn't it?
From a minimalistic point of view you can't simply time somebody out because you don't know if he has just disconnected. There may also be viable reasons for his absence and you can't expect him to have informed you about it.
On the other hand how are you going to know if he is absent or not? If he hasn't done anything the entire turn you know you can't time him out. When he's been acting the entire time its a rather clear case to be allowed to time him out.
If he hasn't done anything for the last 2 minutes it's a fair enough assumption that he may have disconnected or something similar.
Although I doubt it is as reliable as a rule since the situation doesn't look fundamentally that different if it happens 1:30 mins towards the end.
You should be able to make an educated guess from the situation at the time where your opponent stopped acting and at what speed he usually performs his actions.
Yet, ultimatively it's probably more that you just should make sure you time somebody out for the right reasons. And this is basically also what you should be able to argue. |
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harvestmouse
Joined: May 13, 2007
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Feb 15, 2016 - 12:10 |
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Exactly.
Also remember from the site rules:
"Intentionally delaying the game by for example not ending your turn or by waiting for extended periods of time before moving is not allowed."
Look the more we go into it, the more you can see 'actually I could probably get away with....." I.e. being a dick.
You can try and be a dick, but it falls under the rule of IGMAEOY "I've got my ADMIN eye on you." And they'll catch ya eventually. If you play the dick, eventually the site staff get tired of you. When this happens you are gone; not for a week or a month but gone. Think of the some of the sites most notorious dicks, a lot of them disappeared quietly didn't they.
I think it's best to probably not go into some of the ways this could be abuseable in my opinion. |
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koadah
Joined: Mar 30, 2005
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| Posted:
Feb 15, 2016 - 12:18 |
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