| Poll |
| Where should I apply the 'uncontested catch' rule? |
| You shouldn't. AG3 passing is perfectly fine. |
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75% |
[ 51 ] |
| Make it a passing skill. Perfect Spiral. |
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10% |
[ 7 ] |
| Add it to a marginal passing skill. |
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4% |
[ 3 ] |
| Add it to the Pass skill. |
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10% |
[ 7 ] |
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| Total Votes : 68 |
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Tripleskull
Joined: Oct 12, 2003
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 Posted:
Apr 24, 2016 - 10:08 |
 
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Ad it to diving catch.
Not easy for orcs, dwarfs etc. |
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plasmoid
Joined: Nov 03, 2009
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| Posted:
Apr 24, 2016 - 10:44 |
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Hi guys,
Thanks for all your feedback. I figured it was best to step out of the thread and let things develop, but here I am. I was obviously hoping for a better reception, but there you go 
I've been thinking along similar lines to some of you, before I ended up where I did, so I'd better explain why. First things first: My own preferred solution is making the modifier part of the pass skill, so when a player with Pass throws an accurate pass, and the receiver suffers no negative modifiers, he gets a further +1 to the catch roll.
(Fidius and Bghandras also made suggestions for straight buffs to Pass, and I like those too. And I agree with Topper that making the +1 modifier a base rule for all passes might just end up helping the bashy sides too much.)
The reason is that as far I can see, passing - and the thrower position - gets largely ignored in BB - except on Elf teams. AG3 throwers are often just developed for running, and bought for sure hands. As said earlier in this thread (by Uedder(?)) the game is already somewhat rigged towards running/caging, because scoring quickly just means you give up the ball. I think this is why most new skills suggested in this thread just wouldn't cut it. Investing in developing a passing game isn't very cost effective. As JellyBelly and others have stated, options already exist to develop a passing game. Agreed, but few people do! Accurate is about the only thing that gets taken. Other passing skills are rarely taken. And the same goes for NOS and Diving Catch. They're there. They just don't compare favorably to all the alternatives! (AFAIK).
That's why I wanted a free bonus. Or at least free if you have a Thrower on your roster.
Now, Sage said that AG3 teams already have other advantages that Elfs don't have.
Agreed - but elfs also have lots of their own advantages - like AG4 and A-skills on everyone.
Someone (sorry) said that this makes catchers redundant. I strongly disagree. Elf teams still use theirs. Both for the catch skill and for the different statline.
And JellyBelly (and others) said, that elves should still be better at the passing game. Agreed. And they are! The elf thrower throws further, and the eleven receiver is still much better at wiggling out of coverage. The old adage is still true: 'AG4 rocks, AG3 sucks'. And remember if the receiver is under pressure, then He doesn't catcher like an Elf. In 1 TZ it is still a 4+. Not a 3+.
So I believe the elfs still have a marked advantage.
I think that this rule would be good for hybrid teams - i.e. the teams that don't destroy and aren't elfs.
Obvously, the rule would not be of any use to the Four Elf teams.
For teams without Throwers or P-access (gobbos, filings, chaos, CDs, undead, vamps, necro, lizards, ogres, nurgle and slann [and khorne]) it could make Pass a more interesting doubles choice. But IMO not an obvious investment.
For teams with P-access but no starting Pass (dwarfs and chaos pact [and Brets]) this might make developing an actual Thrower more interesting. Currently they just can't be bothered. AFAIK.
Finally, it would help Humans, Orcs, Skaven, Khemri, Norse, Amazon and Underworld. I'd say that for most of these teams, passing and the Thrower is largely ignored. I think that the teams that will benefit the most are teams that are not doing overly well.
Thanks all
Martin
PS to PainState: I agree that Khemri could get something out of this. But it is worth noting that even with Accurate, your Tomb Guardian is still more liket to Pick up with a reroll (55%) than to have the ThroRa Pick it up and then Pass to him for the +1 to catch! |
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plasmoid
Joined: Nov 03, 2009
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| Posted:
Apr 24, 2016 - 10:59 |
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Oh, 2 more things:
It occurs to me that the alternative Pass skill buffs suggested by Fidiys and Bghandras also applies to elfs. I'm not so keen on that.
Triplskull and others suggested putting the uncontested catch modifier on diving catch. Themetically, that fits perfectly. But thinking hård about it, I still don't think I could ever be bothered to use a skill pick on Diving Catch. Would you? Maybe that's worth another poll.
Perhaps a good compromise would be to put the uncontested catch rule on catch skill. Kind of what Tomey suggested. That would be a buff to a small handful of rosters. Not sure anyone would bother to take it as a skill Pick (doubles or singles). |
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bghandras
Joined: Feb 06, 2011
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| Posted:
Apr 24, 2016 - 11:02 |
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I would like to kindly suggest that linking to the SAFE THROW skill would achieve more passing game feel. I honestly think that my proposal would but that skill well above the ACCURATE skills power level, and would actually combo with ACCURATE. So i think people would take more passing skills in practice if you would go that route. I think there would be an incentive to take both actually, so there is potential to double the passing skills taken in the game.
Also i think in relation to your rulebook, where you nerfed the wardancers, it would make very little negative impact of pushing leap. On the other hand, some ag3 teams could very well build a legitimate leap-sacker, which would make caging more difficult, thus tackling the underlying problem.
I understand that everyone has an opinion, so whatever works for you. But in case you would test it, i would VERY interested in the results. |
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bghandras
Joined: Feb 06, 2011
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| Posted:
Apr 24, 2016 - 11:04 |
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| plasmoid wrote: | | Perhaps a good compromise would be to put the uncontested catch rule on catch skill. Kind of what Tomey suggested. That would be a buff to a small handful of rosters. Not sure anyone would bother to take it as a skill Pick (doubles or singles). |
I would rather suggest the change of wording in the PASS skill in line with my proposal on the PASS skill. So roll twice, and use the best result, thus you can reroll like a 2d block. |
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Tripleskull
Joined: Oct 12, 2003
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| Posted:
Apr 24, 2016 - 11:43 |
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| plasmoid wrote: |
Triplskull and others suggested putting the uncontested catch modifier on diving catch. Themetically, that fits perfectly. But thinking hård about it, I still don't think I could ever be bothered to use a skill pick on Diving Catch. Would you? Maybe that's worth another poll. |
I'm not sure how much it would be picked but after thinking about it I don't like it on diving catch after all. 
How about adding it to catch and making the pass a 2d roll with the pass skill (bghandras proposal).
When an uncontested passer passes the ball to an uncontested catcher the ball should really be catches almost every time. Not that I usually use fluff arguments. This has the positive side effect of adding some value to pass block. Maybe if you added +1 to interception to diving catch someone might bother to combo pass block, diving catch?
I also think adding the uncontended +1 to safe throw has some merit.
Another suggestion could be to let a "safe thrower" choose to fumble/throw inaccurate on all unsuccessful passes.
As mentioned by several others the core of the problem is the caging/grinding/stalling.
How about a change to break tackle? Say let break tackle counter the turnover on a failed dodge? it could be a choice between using the dodge "bonus" and avoiding the turn over or it could just do both ones per turn. |
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Grod
Joined: Sep 30, 2003
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Apr 24, 2016 - 12:31 |
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Does it apply to hand-offs as well? All of a sudden, then, any team can hand-off to get themselves out of trouble... If it doesn't apply to hand-offs, then the fluff is poor, because surely a hand-off is easier to receive then a pass. |
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I am so clever that sometimes I don't understand a single word of what I am saying.
Oscar Wilde |
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Uedder
Joined: Aug 03, 2010
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| Posted:
Apr 24, 2016 - 12:39 |
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Well, the problem I see with giving the skill to the thrower, is that then ANYONE becomes a potential receiver. Imagine that for orcs or humans or skaven! Defending against that kind of stuff becomes almost impossible. It's ok if elves can do it, because elves get bashed hard. But a team with S access, bashing its opponent and then having that kind of offensive threat... well that's just mean.
And mind, I don't think this would lead to more touchdowns and less stall. Actually it would make stalling easier and (most importantly) more prevalent. Because that's some serious quick score threat and you don't want to give your opponent that kind of chance! |
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harvestmouse
Joined: May 13, 2007
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| Posted:
Apr 24, 2016 - 13:08 |
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No mention of my idea then.............personally I thought I (and DukeTyrion) had it spot on. Oh well back to the bottom of the sewer pipe for me. |
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Tripleskull
Joined: Oct 12, 2003
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| Posted:
Apr 24, 2016 - 16:20 |
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Maybe: when a player with break tackle fails a dodge he looses three movement points instead of falling over, ones per action (Could also be attributed to stand firm)
This kind of skill would make it much more risky to play the running game. |
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bghandras
Joined: Feb 06, 2011
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| Posted:
Apr 25, 2016 - 14:36 |
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Upon further review i retract the following parts of my proposal:
- rule change on fumbble
- buff on safe throw
- buff on leap
Keep
- pass and catch as 2d block, so with the skill roll twice, choose the best, and possible to reroll. That way the throwers and catchers would be better than anybody else anyway. |
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plasmoid
Joined: Nov 03, 2009
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| Posted:
Apr 25, 2016 - 15:07 |
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Thanks again for all of your comments.
Fidius, Bghandras and yes, you too Harvestmouse/Duke Tyrion
You all givegood suggestions as to how to make passing better. The problem for me with all of them is that it will also make AG4/elven passing better, and I'm not sure that is such a good idea. IMO the neat thing about the "uncontested catch" modifier is that it doesn't help the elves pass even better.
For example, Bghandras, I do like your rewrite of pass to roll 2 dice. But it does Work for elves. And in combination with a team reroll, your elf thrower would only fumble his quick pass less than 1 in a 1000.
Uedder, I see what you mean with better passing would give even more stalling. But frankly, I don't think there is any more stalling to be had! It's turn 8 grinds all the live long day anyway.
I honestly doubt that +1 to catch from a dedicated thrower would be as broken as some of you obviously think. It won't give orcs/dwarf the AG, or the MA to suddenly whisk past the defence just because they catch well. If you consider the key element of such an offence a pick-up, a pass and a catch - then surely a +1 to any of those rolls would reap a comparable reward. But accurate has been around for ages, and I don't see dwarfs or orcs focusing on that. Or even taking it.
Considering some of the other skills in this game, I can't imagine that "Perfect Spiral Pass" would be broken. Am I mad here?
That said, I do like Tripleskulls suggestion to add the modifier to Catch skill instead. I don't think it would make Catch a lot more popular as a skill pick (let alone a doubles skill pick), but at least it would improve that handful of players that start with AG3 and Catch.
I fully agree with Tripleskull, that the problem stems from the way passing is implemented.
More specifically the way Pass and Catch are reroll skills, so team rerolls give no further help.
Using your dedicated positionals to pass and catch the shortest pass in the game will fail for elves 5,5% of the time.
For an AG3 thrower throwing a quick pass to an AG3 catcher, that number is 21%! I could do better throwing to my kid. That number just seems way off.
With the uncontested catch rule in place on either Pass or Catch, that number would improve to 13,5% - which is still a considerable risk.
Finally, I do think there is merit in coming up with ways to make caging less reliable. It could make the game a lot more interesting. At least in my eyes.
We already have leap, so perhaps an S-skill is indeed needed.
Tripleskulls suggestion makes sense. It also reminds me a lot of the original Stand Firm, which was nerfed into oblivion. I still remember the ability to make a guaranteed move for 1 Square. It certainly rocked.
This kind of got me to thinking, what if the sad and overlooked Multiple Block allowed you to make the follow up for your first block before making the 2nd block? I think that could put serious pressure on Cages. It would allow coaches to engineer Blocks to get rid of Cage corners. Or indeed block the Cage corner first, and then follow up and block the ball carrier...
How about that?
Cheers
Martin |
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deyempe
Joined: Aug 14, 2013
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| Posted:
Apr 25, 2016 - 15:13 |
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| Dunenzed wrote: | Passing isn't bad because of the odds associated with it - I think its more that the consequences are so bad, not only have you lost the ball, you've also generated a turnover, and your screen or cage is likely compromised.
I think something to help mitigate the consequences of failure might be better than just reducing the odds of failure.
I'd suggest a pass recovery skill. If a pass is fumbled either at the pass or at the catch then one player on the passing team with the pass recovery skill could move three squares to recover or protect to ball before the turnover is resolved (similar to pass block without the criteria for getting to interception zone of marking the thrower/catcher). That and I'd probably make it part of the existing pass block skill. |
This. |
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mister__joshua
Joined: Jun 20, 2007
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| plasmoid wrote: | | This kind of got me to thinking, what if the sad and overlooked Multiple Block allowed you to make the follow up for your first block before making the 2nd block? I think that could put serious pressure on Cages. It would allow coaches to engineer Blocks to get rid of Cage corners. Or indeed block the Cage corner first, and then follow up and block the ball carrier... |
Funnily, I was just thinking (and typing) exactly the same thing while reading the thread. I think it's an interesting concept. I wasn't sure if it should be Multi-block or Frenzy related, but Multi-block is as you say 'overlooked' whereas Frenzy is already considered powerful. |
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"Yeah, well, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man." - The Dude
Mr. J's LRB7 / Forum |
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Catalyst32
Joined: Jul 14, 2008
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| Posted:
Apr 25, 2016 - 15:37 |
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So far I've only read page 1... so this may have been said already.
But it seems to me the intent of the OP is on the Catcher, yet he suggest a Throwing Skill that seems to me to be very similar to the pre-existing skill "Safe Throw".
I DO think there is not enough passing in the game as is. Even Elf teams with access to great Throwers and Catchers do not Pass very often. And I don't really think Elves need any sort of buffing to their games. They dominate fairly well as is. I also don't see where Chaos and high AV teams need a buff in this area (except MAYBE Khemri would qualify for what I am about to suggest).
I think MAYBE the way to go is to create a BUFF to just a few of the AG3 teams... namely Humans, Norse, Amazons (and a slight buff to Skaven MAYBE and Khemri MAYBE... but it is probably too much of a buff for Skaven IDK what do you think).
This is the way I would handle it.
I would give the THROWERS on Human, Norse and Amazon teams Safe Throw as a starting skill in addition to their other skills. I would not change their PRICE or anything else.
I would give the CATCHERS Diving Catch as a starting skill and would not change their PRICE either. (This would not apply to Runners... or Gutter Runners... only CATCHERS).
So the buff COULD potentially affect Thro-ras and the Throwers for Humans, Norse, Amazon and Skaven teams (and maybe also to Underworld Skaven Throwers too). And only the Catchers on the Amazon and Human teams.
This way we could add a little extra flair to some of the rosters that struggle as is and potentially expand the Passing Game.
What are your thoughts?
Should I make it only apply to Humans Throwers and Catchers and Norse Throwers, maybe? I do think this would be a fair buff to these teams.
Is the buff to Skaven too much? I don't think it would be too much for Underworld.
I don't play Amazons really... is this a bad idea for them?
Will it make any real difference to Khemri?
Should another skill like Extra Arms (for Catchers) Strong Arm (for Throwers) be the skill instead.
Maybe the Throwers could start with Nerves of Steel (I especially like this idea for Norse).
Anyway... it would be nice to see more Throwers THROW THE BALL rather than just be a LEADER CADDY and maybe a RUNNER for their teams. And it would be nice to see a little more Passing in the game. There are so many dedicated RUNNING TEAMS as it is. |
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