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JackassRampant



Joined: Feb 26, 2011

Post   Posted: Jul 18, 2016 - 01:13 Reply with quote Back to top

I'd rather see one or two specific big guys made a little cheaper than to take Loner off of them. Loner is half the fun. Maybe take it off Goblin-team Trolls, I could see that. But otherwise it's fine. Just make Ogres 130k (for all races that can have them) and call it a day.

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harvestmouse



Joined: May 13, 2007

Post   Posted: Jul 18, 2016 - 01:26 Reply with quote Back to top

fidius wrote:
Wreckage wrote:
ArthurWynne wrote:
Loner on Big Guys is fine, it really makes them as players


They would be incredibly valuable assets. Loner respecitively Big Guy earlier is what causes negatraits to be so much of an issue to begin with.
Remove loner and negatraits don't really matter either anymore.

They started with no RR access because the BBRC found big guys broken in playtesting with RR access. It's not a good idea to blindly revoke that fix for no good reason other than that they are a little inconvenient.


I agree that removing Loner is way too big a buff. The hybrid answer of course is to make Pro (on doubles) cancel Loner. Pro would then seriously compete with Block as first doubles skill.


Or.........how about that certain skills could be taken as a trait. Good, worth considering, a bit fluffy but not your normal pick on a double.

So each race had certain traits. Traits could be taken on the roll of an 8. A bit complex probably, but interesting.
PainState



Joined: Apr 04, 2007

Post   Posted: Jul 19, 2016 - 15:35 Reply with quote Back to top

Wreckage wrote:
Remove loner and negatraits don't really matter either anymore.



I know of some vampires who think this thought process is totally bonkers. Surprised Shocked Laughing

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Wreckage



Joined: Aug 15, 2004

Post   Posted: Jul 19, 2016 - 15:52 Reply with quote Back to top

PainState wrote:
Wreckage wrote:
Remove loner and negatraits don't really matter either anymore.



I know of some vampires who think this thought process is totally bonkers. Surprised Shocked Laughing


Well, it's also a difference if you have one player with a negatrait or six of course...

Run a vamp team with one vampire and a couple of RR and I assure you Bloodlust won't matter Wink Conversly imagine Vamps with longer Smile
PainState



Joined: Apr 04, 2007

Post   Posted: Jul 19, 2016 - 16:26 Reply with quote Back to top

Wreckage wrote:

Well, it's also a difference if you have one player with a negatrait or six of course...


That is true but the end result regardless of one player or up to six. Failing a nega trait roll presents a issue. Do you use a reroll on a failed action that does not result in a turn over?

Vamps are not a good example because Blood Lust is the worst of all the nega traits, for a very simple reason, a failed BL roll can actually send one of your players to the Badly Hurt box or send off the player who failed his BL roll. Bone Head, Wild Animal and so forth is just annoying to devastating depending on the situation but no one is getting hurt, Laughing

Goblins getting eaten by Trolls does not count because, well, they are goblins and that is fun. Laughing

Now lets go back to this one VS six discussion. Ogre teams,the dilemma is always the same. If you fail a Bonehead roll do you waste a reroll on that action? For a ogre team at some point you have to choose to use most of your rerolls on failed bone head rolls because the snotlings are not going to be able to carry the team.

A human/orc team. Ogre/Troll fails their nega, there are only a handful of situations where you would be almost forced to use the reroll. Just take the failed roll and move on because the rest of the team can take care of it.

I think most coaches would not waste a reroll on a failed nega roll even if they could reroll it. The reroll is worth more than making sure your ogre can move that turn. Now also remember you are rerolling the failed roll, you could still fail, it is not guaranteed.

Vamps and Ogre teams are different because both those teams revolve around those players because the support crew is snotlings and hobgoblins. You have to let them reroll failed nega checks or else they become pointless.

Conversely if you let the other Big Guys reroll nega checks it is almost pointless because there are so few situations it is worth rerolling the failed nega.

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Last edited by PainState on Jul 19, 2016 - 16:35; edited 1 time in total
PainState



Joined: Apr 04, 2007

Post   Posted: Jul 19, 2016 - 16:31 Reply with quote Back to top

What if Loner did not apply to the nega trait roll but was applied for every other roll?

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Wreckage



Joined: Aug 15, 2004

Post   Posted: Jul 19, 2016 - 16:35 Reply with quote Back to top

The bigger issue is probably re-rolling blocks. That's where re-rolls are handy when you got no block skill.

Conversly there is Jugs but an invested blitz means you might lose it on the negatrait. But... well... bone head on a blitz would be a good example of a negatrait you want to re-roll.

Take Root is probably the worst negatrait.
zakatan



Joined: May 17, 2008

Post   Posted: Jul 19, 2016 - 17:34 Reply with quote Back to top

Wreckage wrote:
The bigger issue is probably re-rolling blocks. That's where re-rolls are handy when you got no block skill.

Conversly there is Jugs but an invested blitz means you might lose it on the negatrait. But... well... bone head on a blitz would be a good example of a negatrait you want to re-roll.

Take Root is probably the worst negatrait.


I'd rate Take Root as the least crippling negatrait, considering that only ma2 players have it.

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D_Arquebus



Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Post   Posted: Jul 19, 2016 - 17:40 Reply with quote Back to top

It takes you out of a drive more or less. Vs one turn of lost TZ or Failed Blitz etc.

After Bloodlust, Take Root is by far the worst. 90% of my Fling RRs go into stopping it. Woodies probably care less. Razz

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Last edited by D_Arquebus on Jul 19, 2016 - 17:42; edited 1 time in total
Wreckage



Joined: Aug 15, 2004

Post   Posted: Jul 19, 2016 - 17:41 Reply with quote Back to top

zakatan wrote:
I'd rate Take Root as the least crippling negatrait, considering that only ma2 players have it.


Oh? Interesting.

How do you keep em in the game?
zakatan



Joined: May 17, 2008

Post   Posted: Jul 19, 2016 - 17:50 Reply with quote Back to top

extended Big Guy list. Are they fairly priced?

Fen Beast 120,000 4 5 1 9 Loner, Bone Head, Mighty Blow, Thick Skull, Throw Team Mate, Regenerate
Treeman 120,000 2 6 1 10 Loner, Take Root, Mighty Blow, Thick Skull, Throw Team Mate, Strong Arm, Stand Firm
Minotaur 150,000 5 5 2 8 Horns, Frenzy, Mighty Blow, Wild Animal, Loner, Thick Skull
Bone Giant 150,000 3 6 1 8 Loner, Really Stupid, Regeneration, Thick Skull, Mighty Blow, Break Tackle
Kroxigor 140,000 6 5 1 9 Bone Head, Thick Skull, Mighty Blow, Prehensile Tail
Deathroller 160k 4 7 1 10 Loner, Break Tackle, Dirty Player, Juggernaut, No Hands, Mighty Blow, Secret Weapon, Stand Firm
Kroq-Ra 140,000 5 5 1 8 Loner, Bone Head, Thick Skull, Regeneration, Prehensile Tail, Might Blow
Snotling Pumpwagon 150,000 5 7 1 9 Break Tackle, Dirty Player, Juggernaut, No Hands, Mighty Blow, Secret Weapon, Stand Firm
Giant Cave Squig 120,000 4 5 1 9 Loner, Claw, Really Stupid, No Hands, Thick Skull
Fanatic 70,000 3 7 1 7 Ball and Chain, Secret Weapon, No Hands
Doom Seeker 80,000 4 7 1 8 No Hands, Ball and Chain, Secret Weapon
Werebear 110,000 4 5 1 8 Loner, Really Stupid, Mighty Blow, Thick Skull, Grab
Yowie 140,000 4 6 1 9 Bone Head, Thick Skull, Mighty Blow, Break Tackle, Throw Team Mate,
Foo Statue 130,000 3 6 1 9 Loner, Take Root, Mighty Blow, Stand Firm, Thick Skull, Sure Feet
Giant Crab 140,000 4 5 1 9 Bone Head, Claws, Side Step, Throw Team Mate, Always Hungry
Zombie Ogres 130,000 4 5 1 9 Loner, Bone Head, Regenerate, Thick Skull, Mighty Blow
Vampire Lord 160,000 6 5 4 8 Loner, Regenerate, Hypnotic Gaze, Wild Animal
River Troll 110,000 4 5 1 9 Loner, Always Hungry, Mighty Blow, Really Stupid, Regeneration, Throw Team-Mate
Oni 180,000 6 5 1 9 Loner, Wild Animal, Claw, Horns, Thick Skull, Frenzy, Juggernaut, Regenerate
Ogres 140,000 5 5 2 9 Bone Head, Loner, Mighty Blow, Thick Skull, Throw Team Mate
Bloodthirster 200,000 5 7 3 9 Loner, Bloodlust, Regenerate, Thick Skull, Claw, Mighty Blow, Frenzy, No Hands
Great Unclean One 200,000 3 6 1 10 Loner, Bone Head, Regeneration, Thick Skull, Disturbing Presence, Foul Appearance, Mighty Blow, Nurgle's Rot, Stand Firm, Fend
Yheti 140,000 5 5 1 8 Wild Animal, Claw, Frenzy, Disturbing Presence
Gorger 150,000 6 5 1 9 Wild Animal, Mighty Blow, Thick Skull, Frenzy
Grounds Keeper 200,000 4 7 1 10 Loner, Break Tackle, Dirty Player, Juggernaut, No Hands, Mighty Blow, Stand Firm
Gnomish Contraption 140,000 3 6 1 10 Decay, Mighty Blow, Stand Firm, Bonehead
Keeper of Secrets 200,000 7 5 4 8 Loner, Wild Animal, Regenerate, Extra Arms, Claw, Very Long Legs
Lord of Change 200,000 7 5 3 9 Loner, Wild Animal, Regeneration, Mighty Blow, Leap, Very Long Legs, Foul Appearance
Troglodyte 150,000 5 5 1 9 Loner, Bone Head, Thick Skull, Mighty Blow, Prehensile Tail, Disturbing Presence
Harvester of Souls 180,000 6 5 1 9 Loner, Thick Skull, Horns, Prehensile Tail, Mighty Blow, Foul Appearance, Bone Head, Regenerate
Beast of Malal 140,000 6 5 1 8 Claw, No Hands, Thick Skull, Foul Appearance,Sure Feet
150,000 5 5 2 9 Loner, Really Stupid, Claw, Hypnotic Gaze, Prehensile Tail
Rat Ogres 150,000 6 5 2 8 Wild Animal, Mighty Blow, Frenzy, Prehensile Tail
Plague Censer Bearer 120,000 3 7 1 7 Ball & Chain, No Hands, Disturbing Presence
Doom Flayers 160,000 6 7 1 9 Loner, Break Tackle, Frenzy, Juggernaut, No Hands, Mighty Blow, Secret Weapon, Dirty Player

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zakatan



Joined: May 17, 2008

Post   Posted: Jul 19, 2016 - 17:53 Reply with quote Back to top

Wreckage wrote:
zakatan wrote:
I'd rate Take Root as the least crippling negatrait, considering that only ma2 players have it.


Oh? Interesting.

How do you keep em in the game?


I've never really played with them. Playing against treemen you do pretty much the same regardless they are rooted or not. Just stay out of his TZ, the same way woodies or halflings try to shelter themselves under their shade.

If the action moves too far from the tree (5 squares away...) it doesn't really matter if they are rooted since they can't reach it.

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PainState



Joined: Apr 04, 2007

Post   Posted: Jul 19, 2016 - 18:00 Reply with quote Back to top

There is a upside to a rooted tree on a fling team.

Now you have no excuse to not start throwing flings all over the pitch attempting to land on the other teams head.

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MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Jul 19, 2016 - 18:10 Reply with quote Back to top

zakatan wrote:
Wreckage wrote:
zakatan wrote:
I'd rate Take Root as the least crippling negatrait, considering that only ma2 players have it.


Oh? Interesting.

How do you keep em in the game?


I've never really played with them. Playing against treemen you do pretty much the same regardless they are rooted or not. Just stay out of his TZ, the same way woodies or halflings try to shelter themselves under their shade.

If the action moves too far from the tree (5 squares away...) it doesn't really matter if they are rooted since they can't reach it.

When you play Halflings you need your Treemen advancing to protect the ball carrier.
Take Root forces you to either waste a rr or use a skull/both down result to get knocked down and get rid of roots, hopefully.
On MA 2 players Take Root is terrible because you need to move them often to place them in a good position, therefore making more Take Roots tests than necessary if they had a higher MA.
fidius



Joined: Jun 17, 2011

Post   Posted: Jul 19, 2016 - 20:02 Reply with quote Back to top

harvestmouse wrote:
Or.........how about that certain skills could be taken as a trait. Good, worth considering, a bit fluffy but not your normal pick on a double.

So each race had certain traits. Traits could be taken on the roll of an 8. A bit complex probably, but interesting.

I like the idea of traits because they can define a positional with access to unique skills no one else can get. But complexity is a major downside. Maybe the answer is to have a set of "Trait Packs", so for example Goblins and Snots get Sneak Traits, Blitzers get Blitz Traits, Chaos spawn get Chaos Traits, etc. Another thought is to allow basic Chaos traits to all players, reflecting the Warhammer universe's constant contact with warpstone -- some of it is bound to rub off. Maybe that's the place for a Devious mutation for Big Guys (removes negatrait) or Carapace that adds the +AV.

However I'm inclined to think this can be accomplished reasonably well with the existing doubles system.
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