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Poll
Is min/maxing a problem in Blackbox?
Yes
24%
 24%  [ 16 ]
No
38%
 38%  [ 25 ]
Who cares? Now where's my pie?
36%
 36%  [ 24 ]
Total Votes : 65


harvestmouse



Joined: May 13, 2007

Post   Posted: Sep 07, 2016 - 20:49 Reply with quote Back to top

bghandras wrote:
You say it is morally bad. But as i said there is no LYING or committing a CRIME involved. So it is not even inmorale by society. It is only inmorale in your mind.

You implying i am against social law is flawed.


Lying is only one form of deception. Playing matches that people cannot turn down is another (box). Playing matches where the opponent does not have the experience (or if we are honest the brainpower to know they don't have a chance) (open league/ranked) is another.

It is easy to take candy from children on the street legally. However morally you should not.
JellyBelly



Joined: Jul 08, 2009

Post   Posted: Sep 07, 2016 - 20:51 Reply with quote Back to top

This thread was intended to be more of a discussion about min/maxing, as opposed to racial diversity. However, something I've advocated before to improve diversity would be monthly racial medals. That might be more of a 'carrot' approach, as opposed to the 'stick' approach of enforced diversity.

Although, by itself, it wouldn't prevent the occasional 'anti-social' coach who is dead set on power-gaming with a particular team.

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harvestmouse



Joined: May 13, 2007

Post   Posted: Sep 07, 2016 - 20:53 Reply with quote Back to top

koadah wrote:
mrt1212 wrote:

Would you be more apt to play Box if there was enforced diversity organized along the categorical groups I outlined?


No. Less likely.

But y'all know what I want. Wink

harvestmouse wrote:

It's quite clear. The idea is to play fair. With TV/Box. That simply isn't the case.


The game isn't fair. One turners aren't fair. If someone gets one you still expect them to use it.

If it was that big a deal there would be a rule against it.


Actually I believe it is illegal. However it isn't enforced. It's an uncomfortable subject though. Fluffwise you have to accept it. Competitionwise it's unfair.

Social rule is on the fence. Social rule in other situations it's very clear.
bghandras



Joined: Feb 06, 2011

Post   Posted: Sep 07, 2016 - 20:54 Reply with quote Back to top

Right, so according to your morale, i am responsible for others not taking the same advantage of rules, thus losing. And you argue by deception. The logical question is then as follows:
- Do you go out and clarify what deceptors (politicians) say to get votes? You know those statements that have a much greater effect on society, and earth in general that any game of bbowl.
Do you do that, or just using double standards in this debate to avoid a face loss here?

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harvestmouse



Joined: May 13, 2007

Post   Posted: Sep 07, 2016 - 20:56 Reply with quote Back to top

JellyBelly wrote:
This thread was intended to be more of a discussion about min/maxing, as opposed to racial diversity.


The problem is, and with all these threads. You change one thing, and it has an influence on something else.

So somebody could mention something totally different and it could influence your point.

I'm not going to mention the combo, but changing that would probably have an effect on your point. Everything is connected in this game, and changing one aspect needs to be monitored before changing something else.

It's not easy.
Matthueycamo



Joined: May 16, 2014

Post   Posted: Sep 07, 2016 - 21:05 Reply with quote Back to top

harvestmouse wrote:
Matthueycamo wrote:

Trying to end min/max is really looking for the Holy Grail. Regardless of whether it's a problem or not it's just how people are when they get competitive.


Well definitely no. If you eradicated TV, then min/max is no more. However if you did that, you'd have other problems.

The holy grail is find the balance. I don't play box, looking at it......I'd rather quit than play box. My opinion is that it needs a better balance AND the format of not choosing your match ups is the right way to go.


That just shifts the min max to skill access and starting rosters entirely. Does not eliminate the seeking of advantage around skill choice.or how much can you get from your no TV.

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harvestmouse



Joined: May 13, 2007

Post   Posted: Sep 07, 2016 - 21:07 Reply with quote Back to top

bghandras wrote:
Right, so according to your morale, i am responsible for others not taking the same advantage of rules, thus losing.


No. I am arguing that some of you are taking advantage of the rules. Are you really implying you are not taking advantage of the rules? Seriously? By taking advantage of the rules, you are taking advantage of real people who have no way of declining. And by site rules, they cannot back out of the match either. Again, you are taking advantage of the site rules of refusing/skipping a match........so you put coaches through the torment of an almost guaranteed loss... horrid. Albeit made up by the fact you're a nice guy to play. The next person to step into your playstyle (hello Italian guys who are now uberbanned) and are not nice to play....well.

You then on top of this have a grey area. Where some are taking advantage to a degree, and others are not. You are causing an unfair playing field. This was never the intent of the game, the site, or the ruleset.



bghandras wrote:
And you argue by deception. The logical question is then as follows:
- Do you go out and clarify what deceptors (politicians) say to get votes?
Off topic, but morally the same. This is totally wrong and yes they should be morally responsible for promising one thing and back tracking.

I mean WTF, am I alone here? Is deceiving people like any of these examples morally ok? If you win on any level by deception, that is not ok in my book. Surely I am not alone in thinking this....

bghandras wrote:
Do you do that, or just using double standards in this debate to avoid a face loss here?


Please state my double standards? I don't really understand the point. In the past yes, I picked in ranked. I accept that and with experience I learnt from that. As of the person I am now........where are my double standards?


Last edited by harvestmouse on Sep 07, 2016 - 21:19; edited 1 time in total
keggiemckill



Joined: Oct 07, 2004

Post   Posted: Sep 07, 2016 - 21:17 Reply with quote Back to top

I never min-max, unless I need to cut for a TV limited Box Minor. Cherry Picking, is admitting to everyone that you aren't that good, and you would rather take the easy road. I've noted this in all your files, and it will reflect in your performance reviews, and future applications for promotions within the company. You have no future here.

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keggiemckill



Joined: Oct 07, 2004

Post   Posted: Sep 07, 2016 - 21:23 Reply with quote Back to top

Overall Emerging Star
CR 150.87
Record 86/57/118
Win Percentage 44%

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koadah



Joined: Mar 30, 2005

Post   Posted: Sep 07, 2016 - 21:58 Reply with quote Back to top

JellyBelly wrote:
This thread was intended to be more of a discussion about min/maxing, as opposed to racial diversity. However, something I've advocated before to improve diversity would be monthly racial medals. That might be more of a 'carrot' approach, as opposed to the 'stick' approach of enforced diversity.

Although, by itself, it wouldn't prevent the occasional 'anti-social' coach who is dead set on power-gaming with a particular team.


If you want to award medals go do it

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thoralf



Joined: Mar 06, 2008

Post   Posted: Sep 07, 2016 - 21:59 Reply with quote Back to top

harvestmouse wrote:
Lying is only one form of deception. Playing matches that people cannot turn down is another (box).


Therefore, B is a form of deception.

I don't think Forums should be the place for that kind of crap.
harvestmouse



Joined: May 13, 2007

Post   Posted: Sep 07, 2016 - 22:01 Reply with quote Back to top

thoralf wrote:
harvestmouse wrote:
Lying is only one form of deception. Playing matches that people cannot turn down is another (box).


Therefore, B is a form of deception.


Not at all. In it's form it's the most honest of all divisions. 2 teams playing each other by means of fair matching.
Wreckage



Joined: Aug 15, 2004

Post   Posted: Sep 07, 2016 - 22:02 Reply with quote Back to top

Quote:
Again, you are taking advantage of the site rules of refusing/skipping a match........so you put coaches through the torment of an almost guaranteed loss... horrid.


Ok, here goes.
Is the game not nice because only one side is only making proper use of their advantages? Then the game is horrid as a result of the one coach who failed to make proper use of the rules and to build a competitive team that could be used for a fun match.
There is no grey area as arguing for semi competitive teams when you use a semi competitive team yourself is the same thing as demanding to be the best coach.
Essentially when you draw the line somewhere subjectively and everybody plays along then only the one is the victor that subjectively interprets that line the most loosely while still being correct. If you complain that others interpret the same rule more loosely than you then it is because you want to be the one that interprets the rule the most loosley and everyone who looks beyond your interpretation should be wrong.
Whereas with a hard rule everyone has a fix point up to which anyone can explore the game and anyone can play on the same level. If there is an exploit there is an exploit. It can't be helped. It may be less fun at times but it is always fair and if it is less fun it is because of the rules not because of the people involved.
It's entirely different with subjective rules. Subjective rules make everything personal. They create hate and mistrust. They legitimate people who preach vigilance and conversely the atmosphere of tensions creates a legitimization for disrupters. It contributes to an unpleasant atmosphere and as a community grows, it continually disintegrates along with people that are not properly intergrated into the social structure or rather are simply just new.
The game becomes in effect instead of a platform people gather around because they like the rules something with no given rules where you have to figure out what makes each and everyone happy. The actual point or purpose of the game that you think people should be gathering around has no meaning anymore.

I'm all for good rules. Talking about improving the rules is great. Being respectful to each other. Yes. Trying to have a fun experience? Yes. Try your best instead of whining about your losses and you will be able to fully appreciate both and be able to be happy with it. Not being deceitful beyond the confines of the games. Yes, absolutely. Your wins and your losses, lift off the heavy burden of being not responsible because you build a sub-otimum team. Instead do the opposite and say aloud to yourself: Yes, I lost, I failed because I did not build a better team. It is my shortcoming. Not the others are at fault but I will still bear with it. I enjoy my team so I will keep playing with it but it is just my own business. And I will not disrespect others victories by complaining about the match-up.
pythrr



Joined: Mar 07, 2006

Post   Posted: Sep 07, 2016 - 22:02 Reply with quote Back to top

cpomb is bad, m'kay

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bghandras



Joined: Feb 06, 2011

Post   Posted: Sep 07, 2016 - 22:09 Reply with quote Back to top

"Subjective rules make everything personal. They create hate and mistrust. They legitimate people who preach vigilance and conversely the atmosphere of tensions creates a legitimization for disrupters. It contributes to an unpleasant atmosphere and as a community grows, it continually disintegrates along with people that are not properly intergrated into the social structure or rather are simply just new. "

Thanks Wreckage to say this. I think this chain of logic better explains the correlation between subjective rules and communist dictatorship than i did in my previous post.

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