ArrestedDevelopment
Joined: Sep 14, 2015
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Feb 02, 2017 - 17:11 |
 
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| Harad wrote: | | bghandras wrote: | | Dorf is not the worst matchup in the box. Tie is easy with 2 reserves and 1 guard. The worst matchup is woodies. |
Interesting, I see the logic. My box sample size is only around 40 games and much at high tv but my worst matchup is human followed by skaven. I'd be interested in the statistics though. I suspect that across the larger number of coaches that dwarfs might be the worst matchup although I can see how a skilled coach against less skill might fancy their chances more against them than elves. |
Would think also that team composition plays a part here - obviously at rookie point there is a large burden on respective coach skill, but some skills into the team and wrestle/dodge linezons are going to be of far more value than block/dodge against dwarves as over a game it can simply tilt the speed battle (one of the few amazons win rather handily) even further in 'zon favour.
Easy to note of course that both humans and skaven have easy access to tacklepomb, similarly cheap linos/fodder, and importantly, more speed. However, we forget another factor here - a lot of the coaches playing both humans and skaven in box are, at the very least, competent. Especially as TV rises. Not always true for dorfs.
[edit]
| Harad wrote: |
Although how you've only got dwarfs twice in 139 games is a travesty  |
Scheduler tries to avoid the matchup due to racial factor (same goes for vamps vs amazons which is an unbearable game as vamp coach. I've been there).
http://fumbbldata.azurewebsites.net/racevsrace.html
Btw, you want to be really disgusted, go see how often Endzone gets scheduled games vs stunties! |
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Harad
Joined: May 11, 2014
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Feb 02, 2017 - 17:23 |
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So, according to those stats, and your own record bghandras, I require you to bring some strong evidence that amazons vs wood elves is worse than amazons against dwarfs it sounded nice but I'm just not sure it's true. |
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bghandras
Joined: Feb 06, 2011
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Feb 02, 2017 - 17:52 |
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I am pretty sure i played them more but that perception can be skewed by cdorfs (considered as dorsf) and ranked games.
"amazons are so misunderstood" (in a 'update the rules' thread where many replies were 'nerf zons'): what did you mean by that?
Hard to remember without context... |
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bghandras
Joined: Feb 06, 2011
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Feb 02, 2017 - 18:10 |
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| Harad wrote: | | So, according to those stats, and your own record bghandras, I require you to bring some strong evidence that amazons vs wood elves is worse than amazons against dwarfs it sounded nice but I'm just not sure it's true. |
Ah, my tabletop style experience, and rookie league games may also influence that perception. |
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ArrestedDevelopment
Joined: Sep 14, 2015
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Feb 02, 2017 - 18:11 |
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| bghandras wrote: | I am pretty sure i played them more but that perception can be skewed by cdorfs (considered as dorsf) and ranked games.
"amazons are so misunderstood" (in a 'update the rules' thread where many replies were 'nerf zons'): what did you mean by that?
Hard to remember without context... |
Hmm, I misremembered about it being a "nerf zons" context, however was here. I ask simply because in the context of CRP zons being modified, you use the adjective misunderstood as to their current status. I think I put off simply PM'ing you at the time as I considered you to be too busy with DLE to bother you.
Although looking back at it now, your current thoughts in this thread may answer my question for me - dwarves aren't as hard a counter as presumed in your mind.
[edit] And since I brought the game data that contradicted that theorem, here's a fun look at lrb4 zons. Obviously different era of BB, but dorfs/chorfs still had tackle  |
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bghandras
Joined: Feb 06, 2011
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Feb 02, 2017 - 19:02 |
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I think i replied to spelledaren. I dont agree that dorfs destroy amazons. Sure tackle counters dodge. Which generally means that all players on both sides on the pitch has one less effective skill. (Dwarf blitzers not unless they take tackle.)
What remains at middle and medium tv:
As long as amazon have enough reserves, the slow dwarves need to go the whole distance 2 times against 11 players. I think this is difficult to impossible. If amazon have kick, then almost never can happen against a decent coach. Then it as amazon to score once, which gives 1-1 as final result.
Amazons are misunderstood in a sense that their main strenght is bench, hence being hard to score on them twice.
Edit:
My high TV all lino ranked amazon team went 3-1-0 vs dwarfs so far.
https://fumbbl.com/p/team?op=view&showmatches=1&team_id=710544
Edit2:
Cant find the evidence but someone once calculated and told me that my win % with amazon vs dwarfs is slightly above 60% |
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MattDakka
Joined: Oct 09, 2007
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Feb 02, 2017 - 19:14 |
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The problems arise when Dwarfs and Chaos Dwarfs have some Mighty Blow players, AV 7 players are easy to depitch.
At low TV they won't have many, but at mid-high TV they will, or at least 1 killer with pomb. |
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bghandras
Joined: Feb 06, 2011
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Feb 02, 2017 - 19:24 |
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That is fine. At that point amazons have measures to stall be kick, guard, dp, pomber. The real problem is when dorfs has it all:
- mb on many players
- multiple pomber
- guard on all
- have bench so no lucky cas thwarts them
- developed a quick/agile baller.
All the above happens only at high tv. So middle tv is still OK-ish matchup. |
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Jim_Fear
Joined: May 02, 2014
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Feb 02, 2017 - 19:42 |
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Don't play as Amazons; they teach bad Blood Bowl habits. Habits such as believing Blodge to be infallible, when it will still fail 1/6 of the time, and the habit of believing that AG3 + Dodge is better than AG4 without. It's not.
32/6/10 |
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MattDakka
Joined: Oct 09, 2007
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Feb 02, 2017 - 19:45 |
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| Jim_Fear wrote: | | AG3 + Dodge is better than AG4 without |
Dodging with AG 3 + Dodge is better than dodging with AG 4 without rr, assuming the player is not dodging away from a Tackle player.
AG 4 is better if you are going to rr it. |
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moussambani
Joined: May 13, 2004
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Feb 02, 2017 - 21:45 |
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So many replies, and I thank you all. But the main take I get from them is a bit discouraging.
I didn't want to show Amazons as a "do as you wish" team. But I wanted to show options showing the advantages or disadvantages of them, without being directed to just one way to play them, because a successful Amazon player writes a guide showing his playstyle, which is respectable, but limited in that it is a single player's view, and I wanted a wider representation.
But it seems people is convinced that there is indeed one and only one right way to play Amazons, which saddens me. I am obviously not a good player. Not with Amazons, not with any team. I can't write a guide. But I see the project is big and I can't ask for someone to do it on his own. That's why I asked for general input. A joint effort of the successful Amazon coaches in here.
Is it the general view in here that I idealized this team too much? That I picked too high an endeavour to give an extensive and multi-PoV guide to Amazons?
Also, to those messages that say Amazons teach bad habits, I'd reckon all teams teach bad habits, because you learn to rely on the strengths of said team. So I can't see the point in these kind of replies, sorry...
So, the question remains. Can it be done? I can try to bring about some high-range project, but one that is doomed to failure from the get-go is a waste of time... |
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ArrestedDevelopment
Joined: Sep 14, 2015
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Feb 02, 2017 - 22:01 |
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I don't really see that at all - there was a general discussion of amazon strengths (and any discussion that includes that is undoubtedly going to circle around skill access and cost effectiveness of the roster), and a talk of weaknesses - statline, matchups, (potentially) progression.
Yes, there is quite a heavy focus at the moment on linewoman-heavy lineup discussion, but that is simply one area. There are numerous coaches here who play amazons at mid and high TV who utilise different rosters and strategies(Harad already mentioned Dhaktokh, but there are more).
The thread will meander as it goes. Various points will be made and within them both treasure and muck.
I would suggest that you take a step back, consider the size of the project you endeavour to commence, and realise that this thread has been open 16 hours, before drawing a line under things. |
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moussambani
Joined: May 13, 2004
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Feb 02, 2017 - 22:08 |
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All right, makes sense. Just let myself get discouraged over a couple comments. Would it be better to have a structured discussion, then, or let the fluid wandering of a natural forum thread lead our course?
(Also, no news on a clear easy-to-use diagram maker?) |
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JackassRampant
Joined: Feb 26, 2011
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Feb 02, 2017 - 22:14 |
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Easier than bbpusher? |
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moussambani
Joined: May 13, 2004
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Feb 02, 2017 - 22:33 |
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That is pretty simple for a static example. Might be a bit busy maybe, but that's just a matter of preference. |
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