| Poll |
| Is major tournament play now unbalanced towards bash sides? |
| 1) Yes expensive mistakes favours bash teams |
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3% |
[ 4 ] |
| 2) Yes loss of the wizard favours bash teams |
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8% |
[ 9 ] |
| 3) Yes expensive mistakes AND loss of the wizard favour bash teams |
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28% |
[ 29 ] |
| 4) No the new ruleset is fine and we will continue to see a good mix of bash and agility sides winning tournaments |
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58% |
[ 60 ] |
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| Total Votes : 102 |
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DrDeath
Joined: Mar 27, 2011
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 Posted:
Apr 06, 2017 - 18:22 |
 
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Some interesting responses, thanks for the comments. Yes I can see that loss of Spiralling Expenses could benefit Dark Elfs, and High Elfs too for that matter, but I was thinking more of Woodies, Pro Elfs, and other Av7 sides. I think these sides will still be extremely difficult to get near 2000tv, so loss of SE is irrelevant. I've played low armour, agility sides for years, don't think I've ever managed to get one to above c. 1850. Even at that level they will probably struggle now against say 2500+ bash?
It's true that the loss of PO might help keep more elfs/AV7 players on the pitch (although maybe not - there will be a lot more tackle now and fouling is slightly better). But even if that does happen, it reduces these teams to just playing a passive defence, stopping the opponent scoring. In this aspect the loss of PO is not such an advantage - it doesn't matter if you have 11 elfs still on the pitch, if they're way down on TV they will have no real possibility of cracking a cage now unless the bash coach makes a big mistake (Eldril notwithstanding - good positioning will stop him and he's easily taken out). So the possibility of a turnover TD is much reduced, and we're just reduced to playing passive instead of aggressive defence. The passive defence might by effective now with lots of sidestep, but I fear that will make play a bit boring and one-dimensional, for BOTH coaches. The wizard made things interesting, and if you look at the good balance of winners in big tournaments I don't think it was overpowered.
Regarding the advantage of free inducements for the rich bash sides, I still think that could become a big problem. It's a bit disingenuous to say that bash sides won't get much advantage out of a babe for 50k - they're not going to take a babe against a wimpy Av7 side are they? Bash will take a card (and potentially a lot more than that if they save a lot of Gold), and some cards are very good. Similar thing goes for those who say cards can substitute for the wizard for Av7 sides - there are one or two which are almost as good (but not as good, and only if you're lucky enough to draw one!), BUT it is the bash sides which will benefit more from that because they can afford to buy them. They will get MORE cards because they have the gold to buy them (unopposed by an opponent who can't afford any - they need to save to replace players).
Well that's the way I see it anyway, it will be interesting to see how it pans out in the tournament results (and to a lesser extent in R, B and L). I agree the wizard will be back at some point (who knows when?), but even when it does come back I suspect the game will not be as balanced in big, open environments. I don't think GW designed the new rules for that format frankly - the rules refer more to small leagues. |
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MattDakka
Joined: Oct 09, 2007
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| Posted:
Apr 06, 2017 - 18:39 |
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| DrDeath wrote: | | The wizard made things interesting, and if you look at the good balance of winners in big tournaments I don't think it was overpowered. |
Not overpowered but underpriced, in my opinion.
| DrDeath wrote: | | They will get MORE cards because they have the gold to buy them (unopposed by an opponent who can't afford any - they need to save to replace players). |
Cards and/or Star Players.
About the gold and the inducements:
I think that CRP inducements phase was better.
I understand the reasons behind the BB2016 inducements phase but teams should gain slightly more gold.
AV 7 teams may struggle if they suffer cas after cas, and that is happening to me even if I play Elven Union at low TV. |
Last edited by MattDakka on %b %06, %2017 - %19:%Apr; edited 2 times in total |
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Verminardo
Joined: Sep 27, 2006
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| Posted:
Apr 06, 2017 - 18:46 |
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| DrDeath wrote: | | ... I was thinking more of Woodies, Pro Elfs, and other Av7 sides. I think these sides will still be extremely difficult to get near 2000tv, so loss of SE is irrelevant. I've played low armour, agility sides for years, don't think I've ever managed to get one to above c. 1850. |
Well, I don't know what you've been doing, but others have certainly managed. My Ranked Woodies sit at 2290k right now and they have no more than one stat increase and two doubles (outrageous I know). And that's not even particularly heavy for Woodies. Skaven and Elven Union  naturally weigh in a little lighter. Check out these teams just for example:
https://fumbbl.com/p/team?id=803866
https://fumbbl.com/p/team?team_id=233458
https://fumbbl.com/p/team?team_id=622926
I would have linked Malmir's 2500k Woodies but he seems to have lost some weight lately in the XFL.  |
Last edited by Verminardo on %b %06, %2017 - %22:%Apr; edited 1 time in total |
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Verminardo
Joined: Sep 27, 2006
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| Posted:
Apr 06, 2017 - 20:41 |
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| Quote: | | But even if that does happen, it reduces these teams to just playing a passive defence, stopping the opponent scoring. In this aspect the loss of PO is not such an advantage - it doesn't matter if you have 11 elfs still on the pitch, if they're way down on TV they will have no real possibility of cracking a cage now unless the bash coach makes a big mistake |
I really don't have a clue what you are talking about here. I usually kick first with all my Elven teams, and my game plan is to get the defensive TD, then score again for 2-0 after receiving 2nd half, before I get too outnumbered. Wizard or not, aggressive defence is very viable for Elfses, you just need to be willing to risk some contact, at the right time. Of course, you need to hope for a little luck or for your opponent to make a mistake. That is as it should be. Wizard was just easymode. |
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Medon
Joined: Jan 28, 2015
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| Posted:
Apr 06, 2017 - 21:52 |
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High TV woodies can be reached by not firing permed linemen I suppose? |
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mrt1212
Joined: Feb 26, 2013
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| Posted:
Apr 06, 2017 - 21:53 |
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| Verminardo wrote: | | Quote: | | But even if that does happen, it reduces these teams to just playing a passive defence, stopping the opponent scoring. In this aspect the loss of PO is not such an advantage - it doesn't matter if you have 11 elfs still on the pitch, if they're way down on TV they will have no real possibility of cracking a cage now unless the bash coach makes a big mistake |
I really don't have a clue what you are talking about here. I usually kick first with all my Elven teams, and my game plan is to get the defensive TD, then score again for 2-0 after receiving 2nd half, before I get too outnumbered. Wizard or not, aggressive defence is very viable for Elfses, you just need to be willing to risk some contact, at the right time. Of course, you need to hope for a little luck or for your opponent to make a mistake. That is as it should be. Wizard was just easymode. |
1d6 Wrackle Blitzes erry day |
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Verminardo
Joined: Sep 27, 2006
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| Posted:
Apr 06, 2017 - 22:21 |
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| Medon wrote: | | High TV woodies can be reached by not firing permed linemen I suppose? |
I keep the -MA ones and occasionally the -AG ones. But really you don't need a long bench to go over 2000k. If you have a Tree and a Thrower and 2-3 Catchers, 4 Rerolls for tourney play and some Fan Factor, you'll be there in no time. Elves bloat fast. |
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ArrestedDevelopment
Joined: Sep 14, 2015
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| Posted:
Apr 06, 2017 - 23:28 |
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Morehouse took Woodies to 2M TV in box in 15 games. Yes, he went bench and reroll heavy, but it's not like his results have suffered at all. |
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Medon
Joined: Jan 28, 2015
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| Posted:
Apr 07, 2017 - 11:27 |
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I've got the feeling that a bench limits casualties as well. Being outnumbered leads to 3D Blocks, gangfouling and pinning of all your remaining elves, racking up the casualties. A bench could prevent these slaughter fests somewhat, making it easier to maintain high TV. But I could be wrong there. .. |
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Verminardo
Joined: Sep 27, 2006
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| Posted:
Apr 10, 2017 - 09:54 |
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Yeah going bench and reroll heavy is very competitive indeed. |
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Wreckage
Joined: Aug 15, 2004
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| Posted:
Apr 10, 2017 - 10:27 |
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Why is there no 'favors agile teams' option? |
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zakatan
Joined: May 17, 2008
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| Posted:
Apr 10, 2017 - 10:51 |
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Woodies can very easily get in the 2300TV ranged even without heavy picking or keeping injuries, specially now that they can save for replacements.
| Wreckage wrote: | | Why is there no 'favors agile teams' option? |
Because the OP is heavily biased. |
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DrDeath
Joined: Mar 27, 2011
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| Posted:
Apr 14, 2017 - 11:57 |
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Wreckage yes I guess you're right, to be complete I should have listed 'Favours agile teams'. I am probably biased towards the low AV agility sides - but then I don't see how the changes listed above can possibly benefit those sides compared to the old ruleset?
I think the posts on the odd high tv woodie/pro elf side are rather besides the point. Yes, you might very occasionally get up there (particularly if you keep injured players, take extra rerolls etc. (although a deep bench will be very difficult to afford) - but they are probably very suboptimal for the tv. Or if you just farm lots of games against rookies or stunties. But those are questionable and for other topics!). BUT my point is, even if you enter a side like that, there will come a point in a long tournament where you get smashed up, and next game are many hundreds of tv down against a bash side. As Verminardo said, that even happened to Malmir's side against other elfs. The loss of the wizard will really hurt then imo - there aren't really any other good inducements to open cages.
MrT, yes wrackle is a good skill combination but do you really think you will get that 1d blitz into a cage? A high TV bash side will almost certainly have at least two Guards, on opposite corners, and the ballcarrier will be blodge surehands (and quite possibly Str4 too). It doesn't even matter if you have Strip Ball, Dauntless or Horns - in these kinds of mismatches it will probably be -2D, and even assuming you fluke that you still need to get in there, and afterwards get a good ball scatter and pickup to retrieve. You might sometimes be able to leap/dodge your own guard in there but that's unlikely to be an opton, and dicey too. In those circumstances do you still think it's balanced without the wizard?
Zakatan, I see you've elsewhere discussed introducing team weight in tournaments to account for the advantages of being rich in (1) and (2). I think that's a sensible suggestion for those problems, although I guess it still won't affect the inducement phase once a draw is made? I guess the wizard will eventually come back too when GW decide to milk the rear-right udder for more cash, and finally give us a complete ruleset (^^). |
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Medon
Joined: Jan 28, 2015
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| Posted:
Apr 14, 2017 - 13:37 |
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You forgot that 1) PO is removed so less woodies will die and 2) SE is removed do it is easier to save money for replacing woodies that do die. These two factors will probably lead to high TV woodies, so the bash team suffers for not having a wizard and not the woodies  (or maybe not... well it's at least a possible reasoning for the 'favors agility' faction) |
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MattDakka
Joined: Oct 09, 2007
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| Posted:
Apr 14, 2017 - 14:29 |
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| Medon wrote: | | You forgot that 1) PO is removed so less woodies will die and 2) SE is removed do it is easier to save money for replacing woodies that do die. These two factors will probably lead to high TV woodies, so the bash team suffers for not having a wizard and not the woodies (or maybe not... well it's at least a possible reasoning for the 'favors agility' faction) |
1) PO has been replaced by Tackle/Guard/Frenzy. There will be fewer casualties and fewer "quality" killers, but still KO/failed dodges and more knockdowns suffered by the agile players, moreover, since PO has been removed, the double roll used by bash players to formerly take Jump Up can be used now to take Diving Tackle instead, very annoying for agile teams, especially on ST 4 or higher players;
2) The gold earned after every game doesn't cover massive losses, and hoarding a huge Treasury is not possible anymore.
You will say: "No need to hoard a treasury, you can spend your gold from game to game and slowly build a bench".
Sure, I do it, but when you have AV 7 and play at high TV having 2-3 MNG players is not uncommon, so even a bench doesn't help a lot.
On top of that, bash teams can buy cards/Star Players/bribes. |
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