DrDeath
Joined: Mar 27, 2011
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 Posted:
Mar 31, 2017 - 18:56 |
 
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So the new ruleset has landed, and there has been loads of debate about the loss of PO, and the possibility of seasons. However there has been very little debate about the full implications of the new inducement system, and the loss of the wizard. I fear these two changes will have much larger impacts, and will hugely disadvantage agility and low av sides in big tournaments for the following reasons:
1) Heavy bash sides easily accrue money because they don't lose players often, while agility sides don’t because they struggle to replace lost players. Therefore because teams are encouraged to spend gold or lose it, bash teams could often spend a free 50k+ in inducements over weak sides, who can't afford anything. Do dwarfs really need that against say elfs, or halflings?!;
2) Taking this further, bash sides could easily play prep games before a Major to get over 290 gold with a lucky expensive mistakes roll, thus effectively buying their first round game by spending over 300 gold unopposed against an agility/low av side. You’d hope coaches wouldn’t do that but less face it some unscrupulous ones certainly will (already happened before expensive mistakes was implemented). Why should they be rewarded for that?;
3) IF the weaker teams do get some big inducement money for playing a high TV side, they can't even hire a wizard so there aren't any reliable balancing inducements to crack bash cages. Cue boring, unstoppable grinds (and boring one-turn TD attempts in response, although those will be far less certain and usually only an attempt to equalise if the bash side runs the clock);
4) The problem in point 3 is exacerbated by the lack of 100 – 150tv special play cards on FUMBBL. Some of those would at least offer some decent cage-breaking ability (but even they cannot be reliably obtained, so this wouldn’t be ideal either);
5) Agility/low av sides will be heavily penalised by all the above factors in big tournaments following Pyrrhic victories. By this I mean where they win a round but lose several good players – next round they’re down a few hundred tv, don't even get proper inducements to make that up, and so don’t really have a decent chance anymore;
I really hope I’m wrong, but right now as far as I can see the latest ruleset is a disaster for agility/low av sides on the open competitive environment of FUMBBL. In fact I can’t really see any point in a coach even entering one for a big competition anymore? Or am I wrong? It would be a real shame when the last ruleset was so balanced – we had a good mixture of bash and agility sides winning things in tournaments.
So what do you think? Time for a poll! Please vote on whether you think the new ruleset is balanced for tournament play (e.g. if you’re a dwarf coach you are probably delighted by the new rules, but the question is do you think it’s well balanced? After all we don’t want to to see all bash sides on here do we, that would just be boring)
And just to add this is not meant to be a grumble thread against FUMBBL and Christer. It’s a great site, we’re very lucky to have it and I do not blame Christer one little bit for updating to the latest ruleset – after all, new players will expect to see this and without new blood the game will at some point die. However that said, I have deep reservations about the latest rules, would be interested to see if others share them. If so, some kind of additional house rules may be in order, at least for big tournaments? They are the jewel in FUMMBL’s crown and it would be a shame if they become purely a slugfest between bash teams? |
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mrt1212
Joined: Feb 26, 2013
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Mar 31, 2017 - 19:06 |
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Remains to be seen. I can see some advantages cropping up but with the similar availability of elven coaches build their teams and PO (the real killer) being gone, the meta composition of elf teams might change to some degree so that a ST4 Leap ball popper even with AG4 sees some more traction.
I'm not worried overall for myself since so often when playing elves in tourneys I was facing wizards myself and I've done well enough to incorporate slann concepts to the teams so that unimpeachable cages aren't that bad. |
Last edited by mrt1212 on %b %31, %2017 - %19:%Mar; edited 2 times in total |
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Verminardo
Joined: Sep 27, 2006
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Mar 31, 2017 - 19:06 |
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I think you've got it upside down. Spiralling Expenses was really bad for soft teams because at high TV they could not make the money to replace players, now they can replace them at least one at a time. Whereas bash teams may lose several players, especially their bench/fodder, playing against other bash teams, and will now NOT be able to replace all of them from their huge coffers.
Losing the Wizard, yes, hurts Agility teams most, but especially Elves tend to bloat anyway and now have to be less concerned about that, as the Wizard can hurt them, too.
And of course the real big deal is PO being removed, which means bash is less effective.
Your argument is about being able to build big treasuries but Elves never could, before. I don't really know about Skaven, they might be hurt a bit more (also by the loss of PO) but for Elves, the new rules are very good news even with the removal of the Wizard. Or at least that's my expectation. And when the Wizard comes back in Death Zone Season 2...
Edit: You might have to learn to play a proper defence instead of relying on Wizard and/or one-turning.  |
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mrt1212
Joined: Feb 26, 2013
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Mar 31, 2017 - 19:17 |
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| Verminardo wrote: |
Edit: You might have to learn to play a proper defence instead of relying on Wizard and/or one-turning. |
I think that the loss of a wizard might actually increase the prevalence of building a OTTD player and support players.
Take away one tool, the remaining one's value increases.
By the same token, taking 3 SF players at higher TV seems like an easy thing to do without PO competing for a skill slot and with MVPs being handed out like penny candy. Hope your elves have at least one juggernaut and a MA9 SS Sprint player  |
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Stonetroll
Joined: Jun 30, 2005
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Mar 31, 2017 - 19:26 |
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Coming from the other side of this fence, it always seemed that the wizard was by far the best inducement for the value. And losing games over and over because one side could always just roll some 2+ to knock over the ball and then retrieve with ag5 leaper or something, and nothing that happened in the other 15 turns mattered much.
BTW dirty tricks still has at least 2 cards that perform a similar but less powerful effect (the pie and pit trap). With the bash side of the game also nerfed with removal of piling on, maybe elf teams could once again start to build all linemen with blodge and other position control skills like sidestep. Those teams when well-coached were always really hard to play offence against if you did not get a silly amount of players removed. |
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Zlefin
Joined: Apr 14, 2005
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Mar 31, 2017 - 19:28 |
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Prediction is hard; wait and see how it turns out imho.
didn't agility teams use to win more anyways? or am I misremembering that. |
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Naama
Joined: Jun 12, 2004
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Mar 31, 2017 - 19:28 |
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Elfyelves did just fine with the old claw, rsc and old dirty player around. Im sure they can manage now that even PO has gone o.O |
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Verminardo
Joined: Sep 27, 2006
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Mar 31, 2017 - 19:31 |
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Well one turning is significant but it was before. *shrug* Elves can easily stop the cage grind of a slow team if they don't lose more than two or three players, which is more likely now that PO is gone. But those are fine points, mainly I disagree that it's harder in the new rules to recover from excessive losses, at high TV it was almost impossible before thanks to SE so their removal is the big deal really, not EM. |
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ArrestedDevelopment
Joined: Sep 14, 2015
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Mar 31, 2017 - 20:17 |
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Considering what I read about the selecting of games in another thread, I don't think av7 teams have anything to worry about. After all, without SE if they never see MB/tackle then they're likely to grow to a point where that lack of wizard benefits them. |
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cedric19
Joined: Jul 04, 2011
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Mar 31, 2017 - 21:31 |
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Wait for my 2500 dark elf Team. Or even more. With no se and no wiz there is no need for trimming tv. My bash teams mostly had 13+ players since i did some fouling too. Now elven teams with 13+ players are far better off than before. And these teams will have the best chances. The loss of piling on hurts Incredible since that was the skill to make bashing reliable. |
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easilyamused
Joined: Jun 06, 2008
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Mar 31, 2017 - 21:32 |
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No.
Just no.
Also, why would you mention that this isn't a grumble against FUMBBL or Christer? It's not his rules, it the official BB2016 rules.
Learn to adapt and not rely on 1 tactic to win games. |
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mrt1212
Joined: Feb 26, 2013
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Mar 31, 2017 - 21:39 |
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| cedric19 wrote: | | Wait for my 2500 dark elf Team. Or even more. With no se and no wiz there is no need for trimming tv. My bash teams mostly had 13+ players since i did some fouling too. Now elven teams with 13+ players are far better off than before. And these teams will have the best chances. The loss of piling on hurts Incredible since that was the skill to make bashing reliable. |
Manmax fouling is back baby.
As an aside, when's the last time an elf team won a major anyway? Seems like they've been noticeably absent for a while. |
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pythrr
Joined: Mar 07, 2006
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Mar 31, 2017 - 23:07 |
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this is a vote with no evidence, right? |
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DrDeath
Joined: Mar 27, 2011
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Apr 01, 2017 - 01:00 |
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Yes I'm a scientist so hate questionnaires, prefer to put my faith in hard data. But we won't have a good dataset for a while, so just wondered what others think. Will be interesting to see what happens in the UI final rounds for starters. |
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morehouse
Joined: Sep 29, 2005
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Apr 01, 2017 - 01:10 |
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It's going to be the opposite. Spiraling expenses really killed elves. Now that elf coaches are free to build up their rosters they will start being a huge force again. Elves at 250-300 TV are much more scary than dwarves or orcs or anything else. Once you have multiple players with ag5+ you are going to be able to score on a 2+ whenever you want to. One little mistake by the bashers and they will lose the ball. And with a full roster of 16 the basher can't even grind them down and hope to win in OT. |
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