| Poll |
| Is major tournament play now unbalanced towards bash sides? |
| 1) Yes expensive mistakes favours bash teams |
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3% |
[ 4 ] |
| 2) Yes loss of the wizard favours bash teams |
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8% |
[ 9 ] |
| 3) Yes expensive mistakes AND loss of the wizard favour bash teams |
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28% |
[ 29 ] |
| 4) No the new ruleset is fine and we will continue to see a good mix of bash and agility sides winning tournaments |
|
58% |
[ 60 ] |
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| Total Votes : 102 |
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zakatan
Joined: May 17, 2008
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 Posted:
Apr 14, 2017 - 14:39 |
 
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| MattDakka wrote: | | Medon wrote: | You forgot that 1) PO is removed so less woodies will die and 2) SE is removed do it is easier to save money for replacing woodies that do die. These two factors will probably lead to high TV woodies, so the bash team suffers for not having a wizard and not the woodies  (or maybe not... well it's at least a possible reasoning for the 'favors agility' faction) |
1) PO has been replaced by Tackle/Guard/Frenzy. There will be fewer casualties and fewer "quality" killers, but still KO/failed dodges and more knockdowns suffered by the agile players, moreover, since PO has been removed, the double roll used by bash players to formerly take Jump Up can be used now to take Diving Tackle instead, very annoying for agile teams, especially on ST 4 or higher players;
2) The gold earned after every game doesn't cover massive losses, and hoarding a huge Treasury is not possible anymore.
You will say: "No need to hoard a treasury, you can spend your gold from game to game and slowly build a bench".
Sure, I do it, but when you have AV 7 and play at high TV having 2-3 MNG players is not uncommon, so even a bench doesn't help a lot.
On top of that, bash teams can buy cards/Star Players/bribes. |
It's not like you could save massive treasuries with low AV teams under SE. With EM you can actually buy players even beyond 1800 TV.
With SE you had to hoard money while under 1600TV and you could survive above 1800TV for as long as it lasted, because incoming money was close to zero. Now you just have to fear a massive beating, but that's something that any av7 player know is about to happen any time.
Also, I don't believe any of my elf teams ever had more than 300k saved at any point in their development, neither under LRB4 or CRP. |
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MattDakka
Joined: Oct 09, 2007
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| Posted:
Apr 14, 2017 - 14:55 |
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If I remember well, my High Elves managed to have 500,000 in the Treasury, not massive, but helped them to cover some losses in FC.
Anyway, not being able to hoard gold means that bash teams are more encouraged to buy bribes/cards/Star Players when playing vs agile teams that should not hurt them, especially because the inducements phase is different now and what you buy doesn't create a TV gap anymore. |
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DrDeath
Joined: Mar 27, 2011
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| Posted:
Apr 14, 2017 - 15:14 |
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Yes I agree on both counts Matt. I think Av8 agility sides will still be competitive because they find it easier to get to, and sustain high tv, and can also hoard some gold. I guess that's the way 'agility coaches' go now. It's the Av7 sides which are in trouble. Bash sides hoarding gold and effectively getting free cards/bribes/star players against skint weak sides is likely to be a big problem (in addition to loss of the wizard for now). |
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PainState
Joined: Apr 04, 2007
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| Posted:
Apr 14, 2017 - 18:57 |
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AV7 Agility teams: Wood Elves and Pro Elves (Elf Union) are still very viable in a KO style tournament. Main reason for it, those teams are skilled up in such a fashion that they can quick strike, OTS with ease, have +AG monsters, can handle the ball, both those rosters are some of the fastest moving players from top to bottom of the roster, only rivaled by Skaven and Humans with all their catchers, can get the ball knocked out for a defensive turnover with leap and so forth and with the new MVP rules can build up a team where the linemen are not rookies and have at least Block/Wrestle or Dodge and increase their usefulness and life span.
Knock Out Tournaments are fickle beasts. The whims of chance are so large on the "draw" of the tournament and the natural in game whims of fate that we all suffer under.
Do, High AV9 bash teams like Dwarfs and Orcs have an advantage in a 6-7 round KO format, yes. Then again they have always had that advantage. It is the AV7 AG monsters though that usually do them in and send them packing from the tournament also. |
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Verminardo
Joined: Sep 27, 2006
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| Posted:
Apr 14, 2017 - 20:12 |
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Well, you are correct that the Wizard could help Agility teams win games in which they were ridiculously outgunned otherwise. So we're probably gonna see less of 1500k Woodies or Skaven beating 2300k Chaos or Orcs. Not sure this is a just cause for complaint. 
On the other hand I believe your chances to be left with a 1500k team are lower now, you can build a higher team to begin with (and by no means "suboptimal for the TV", where are you getting these ideas?), with more bench, and without PO the odds of getting totally decimated are lower. It'll still happen but that's just the balance of the game, the Elf that wins the Cup will be the Elf that was able to avoid the epic bashing. I still believe that overall this rulesset favours Elves more than CRP did. You are just going to have to adjust, at least until the Wizard comes back. |
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Medon
Joined: Jan 28, 2015
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| Posted:
Apr 14, 2017 - 20:32 |
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It's just a matter of time. .. High TV Blackbox will be dominated by woodies and pros, and the chaos dwarves, chaos and nurgles that once roamed there will soon be forgotten
(at least I'll try to train some high TV elves there, but not sure if I will succeed...) |
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zakatan
Joined: May 17, 2008
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| Posted:
Apr 14, 2017 - 21:00 |
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I also foresee a resurgence of orcs and dwarves in high TV box.
Elves can go higher, claw loses value, claw victims gain presence.
This may actually bring diversity in high end box play. |
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mrt1212
Joined: Feb 26, 2013
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| Posted:
Apr 14, 2017 - 21:04 |
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| zakatan wrote: | I also foresee a resurgence of orcs and dwarves in high TV box.
Elves can go higher, claw loses value, claw victims gain presence.
This may actually bring diversity in high end box play. |
Yes and no.
Over time the cream will rise and thr coaching base will self select for the teams they perceive gives the biggest edge to them. |
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PainState
Joined: Apr 04, 2007
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| Posted:
Apr 14, 2017 - 21:14 |
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My theory is that "elfs" in a one and done scenario are extremely dangerous. High AV bash side squads are extremely dangerous over the long haul.
Now, HIGH TV elfs can play with the spirit of one and done. Go all out just to win that match and they most likely will be succesful. But they are up to the whims of NUFFLE on how much damage they take or the match up in the Box.
The AV9 teams can just plod along, working the laws of averages in their favor for a long string of activations at high TV and only have a set back or two every now and then. Looming always for Orc/Dwarf teams is the game they forget their armor and get totally pummeled into the pitch and decimated.
You know what Iam talking about all you Orc/Dwarf coaches out there. The laws of averages always catch up to even AV9/10 players, always. |
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PainState
Joined: Apr 04, 2007
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| Posted:
Apr 14, 2017 - 21:19 |
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** Foot Note **
IMO this is why high TV Ranked Elf teams are so maligned, fandangled elf pickers! At least the Box elf teams have that badge of courage that they took on all comers based on what the scheduler spit out and had success. |
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PainState
Joined: Apr 04, 2007
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| Posted:
Apr 14, 2017 - 21:27 |
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What? wizard?
Wizard is a god send to elf teams. The bread and butter of a elf team in a one and done tournament format is to get that one turn over on defense they can turn into a score. A wizard makes that possible on a 2+ Lightning Bolt. Sure, it fails sometimes but most times it does not.
For all other teams a wizard spell on defense usually just disrupts the offense and usually does not turn into a turn over for a score. Of course it can based on team by team basis (Teams like skaven and fast moving players like skinks or human catchers benefit greatly by a bouncing ball)
IMO removing the wizard, even if it is just the short term on FUMBBL, hurts elfs greatly in a tournament format, it has taken away a huge advantage that they have over the other teams, High MA combined with HIGH Ag combined with Leap and Passing and catching all the other stupid elf things they do when they recover a loose ball.
BTW: With BB2016 a Elf team can now induce a wizard even if they are the TV favorite. Another huge buff for elfs but denied by the Wizard strike currently going on at the college of magic.
Remeber back in LRB4 days? No elf worth his salt went into a tournament match and did not spend the 50k on a wizard. |
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Motskari
Joined: Dec 03, 2005
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| Posted:
Apr 14, 2017 - 22:05 |
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My woodies used to lose 30k - 40k in spiralling expenses almost on every match. Our winnings have been doubled after the rule changes. Life is good for them now! |
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JellyBelly
Joined: Jul 08, 2009
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| Posted:
Apr 14, 2017 - 23:20 |
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| DrDeath wrote: | | I think the posts on the odd high tv woodie/pro elf side are rather besides the point. Yes, you might very occasionally get up there (particularly if you keep injured players, take extra rerolls etc. (although a deep bench will be very difficult to afford) - but they are probably very suboptimal for the tv. |
I can't help but disagree with this, DrDeath. In my opinion, elf teams have less of a tendency to 'bloat' at high TV than most other teams do. At what point would you say that elves are taking sub-optimal skills? It seems to me that, even without +stats or doubles, any elf can take 6 normal skills that are all worth their TV cost. I mean, blodge/sidestep is very good on any elf, which makes 3, and after that you've got leap, tackle, strip-ball, sure hands, frenzy, dauntless, diving-tackle, wrestle, sure feet, jump up, etc. ... all potential gold.
Tbh, I'm not sure that elf teams really have a peak TV. I don't think I've reached it with any of my elf teams, and I've had several get up to 2200+. Now, without PO and SE, elf teams will be able to reach and stay at high-TV more easily, which imo is where they are most competitive. |
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