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Krunkova



Joined: Jun 11, 2007

Post   Posted: May 19, 2017 - 20:03 Reply with quote Back to top

I have only played a few games here on FUMBBL and have noticed an interesting trend which I cannot say I' happy about.
I have 13 games with an Orc team that is coming along relatively fine, but the mm system keeps pairing it up with teams that have played over 50 games.
Elf teams (or worse Chaos teams) with players that have 5 skills. Tried talking to an opponent ,that started being a **** and told me i can't play. He has a chaos team with a player with 150 SPP.

That is not a fair matchup. No amount of skill on his part is involved - I didn't have the S to cage or rush - and my players have 1-2 skills - so i had to take risks. Only lost 1-0 .

Am I missing something ?

Is TV the only parameter? Shouldn't the no of games played matter?

I was offered a game from a guy that played 115 games with his team. Thats almost 600 SPP from -mvps alone.

What should I do?
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: May 19, 2017 - 20:20 Reply with quote Back to top

You should play in Blackbox division but, if you really want to play in Ranked, don't accept games with a huge TV difference.
In this game: https://fumbbl.com/p/match?id=3904366 you played with a TV 170 disadvantage, like 8 skills difference; it's a lot, considering that in Ranked you can check the TV of your opponent and decide to accept or refuse the match.
About the numbers of games played: a team could have lot of games played but it could have lost several players in its last match, so number of games may be or not a relevant factor.
Generally speaking, a team with many games played has an advantage, though, so before accepting a match check the roster and the skills, and don't play with huge TV difference if you can, 50 TV or less is fine.
You can play with higher TV gap if you want but then don't whine if you lose.

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Last edited by MattDakka on May 19, 2017 - 20:23; edited 1 time in total
mrt1212



Joined: Feb 26, 2013

Post   Posted: May 19, 2017 - 20:22 Reply with quote Back to top

Krunkova wrote:
I have only played a few games here on FUMBBL and have noticed an interesting trend which I cannot say I' happy about.
I have 13 games with an Orc team that is coming along relatively fine, but the mm system keeps pairing it up with teams that have played over 50 games.
Elf teams (or worse Chaos teams) with players that have 5 skills. Tried talking to an opponent ,that started being a **** and told me i can't play. He has a chaos team with a player with 150 SPP.

That is not a fair matchup. No amount of skill on his part is involved - I didn't have the S to cage or rush - and my players have 1-2 skills - so i had to take risks. Only lost 1-0 .

Am I missing something ?

Is TV the only parameter? Shouldn't the no of games played matter?

I was offered a game from a guy that played 115 games with his team. Thats almost 600 SPP from -mvps alone.

What should I do?


If you're playing in Ranked, you can be more judicious in accepting those matches. That is the benefit of Ranked (as well as its curse). The gamefinder simply shows you all possible matches allowed under the loose framework of TV distance between teams.

Box is a bit different in that matchups with large TV gaps can happen but the likelihood goes down with more teams and coaches throwing teams into the pool per activation. If you're in the NA time zones like myself, you have a good idea of who is activating what, when, just from daily familiarity. The benefit of Box is that you are relieved of the psychological burden of consciously exploiting or being exploited due to differences in team age (it matters) and coaching experience.
mrt1212



Joined: Feb 26, 2013

Post   Posted: May 19, 2017 - 20:31 Reply with quote Back to top

Another thing to keep in mind is that you can reap the personal accomplishment rewards by winning unfair matches with equal doses of coaching prowess and luck. I wouldn't suggest it to newer players getting their feet wet, but for coaches that have been around a while, turn the unfair into a personal challenge of your ability.
Suppurax



Joined: Jun 09, 2007

Post   Posted: May 19, 2017 - 21:31 Reply with quote Back to top

"Is TV the only parameter? Shouldn't the no of games played matter? "

Yes I totally agree with you! The number of games played is more relevant than the TV.

Moreover, the TV gap is fixed by inducements.
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: May 19, 2017 - 21:32 Reply with quote Back to top

Suppurax wrote:

Moreover, the TV gap is fixed by inducements.

Inducements are not supposed to fix the TV gap, but to mitigate it.

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Jeffthejar



Joined: Aug 31, 2011

Post   Posted: May 19, 2017 - 22:04 Reply with quote Back to top

To echo what MattDakka has said, you could consider getting into the blackbox. In my past 24 or so blackbox games, I've only had 2 games that had a TV difference of 100k or higher (biggest tv difference was 220k out of my past 24 box games).

Your results may vary, but Box is usually kind to me as far as TV match ups go.
pythrr



Joined: Mar 07, 2006

Post   Posted: May 19, 2017 - 22:10 Reply with quote Back to top

minmaxy bollocks fushies~

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JellyBelly



Joined: Jul 08, 2009

Post   Posted: May 19, 2017 - 23:02 Reply with quote Back to top

I don't think there is ever going to be a perfect system for blind matchmaking, that will guarantee that every matchup is perfectly balanced. There are just too many factors involved. In my experience, 90%+ of blackbox matchups that I get are balanced enough that I'd say both sides have a chance to get a result.

It's just a fact of life in Blackbox - you have to accept that occasionally you're going to get given a match that is skewed towards your opponent. But then, there should be an equal chance of drawing a game that is skewed in your favour, so over time it should balance out.

To look at it another way: if you enter a tournament, or you're playing in a league, is every matchup going to be 'balanced'?

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Espionage



Joined: Jun 08, 2005

Post   Posted: May 19, 2017 - 23:38 Reply with quote Back to top

JellyBelly, you do realise the OP is talking about being picked in Ranked?

So yeah, it's been said, but I'll say it again. You don't have to accept every game that the gamefinder suggests. In fact I'd go as far to say as you should not accept every game that game finder suggests. Either choose games that you think you have a shot at winning, or that look like fun, Or come over and join us in the Box.
JellyBelly



Joined: Jul 08, 2009

Post   Posted: May 20, 2017 - 00:03 Reply with quote Back to top

@Espionage:

Well, the title of the thread, plus this line here:

Krunkova wrote:
I have 13 games with an Orc team that is coming along relatively fine, but the mm system keeps pairing it up with teams that have played over 50 games.


gave me the impression he was complaining about the Blackbox scheduler ('Matching system').

Sure, if he's talking about Ranked, then you can see what you're getting into there. Learn to pick better, or come play Box with the big boys! Wink

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"Opinions are like arseholes, everybody's got them and they all stink." - The protagonist, Fallout 2

"Go for the eyes, Boo! Go for the eyes!!" Razz
Wreckage



Joined: Aug 15, 2004

Post   Posted: May 20, 2017 - 00:17 Reply with quote Back to top

Suppurax wrote:
"Is TV the only parameter? Shouldn't the no of games played matter? "

Yes I totally agree with you! The number of games played is more relevant than the TV.



Lol, more relevant? You high? No.
Krunkova



Joined: Jun 11, 2007

Post   Posted: May 20, 2017 - 00:38 Reply with quote Back to top

Thanks for the replies guys. The main issue isn't TV in itself. The main issue is the relative number of skills that certain teams have aquired over the many,many games they have played before .
To give a blunt example a rookie human blitzer gives 90k of TV - equal to 4 skills on another player.
So two teams will have roughly the same TV - while one has an extra rookie player and the other has 4 skills on one of their players.

So people seldomly take more then 11-12 players, and have 2-3 players with 5-6 skills.

The simple fix for it is to have skills increase TV more then extra players. That would be fair.
The way this is done now,IMHO ,always gives an advantage to the teams that have "recycled" more lineman and have a few stars.

Think about the following example:

Team A has played 5 games , 3 players have a skill each . The team started with higher FF to earn more cash .And they did. Now they have 14 players.
Lets say ther TV is 1500.

Team B started wiht FF 1 and has dropped lineman after lineman, and has 4 players that have 3-4 skills each - and the rest are ok, or vandering lineman (irrelevant). Team B has 11 players total.

Team B is at a HUGE advantage. They can field their entire TV in a single drive. Team A can only field a portion.

Skills grown through play should increase TV more then extra players.

Second solution would be to calculate TV based on the starting 11 players .

The logic behind this is to stimulate people not to drop players just to have lower TV. It makes perfect sense that, if you can score/defend against the best 11 opposing players, you can also score/defend against the reserves.
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: May 20, 2017 - 00:53 Reply with quote Back to top

Krunkova wrote:

Team A has played 5 games , 3 players have a skill each . The team started with higher FF to earn more cash .And they did. Now they have 14 players.
Lets say ther TV is 1500.

A team with 5 games played doesn't generally needs 14 players, with some exceptions like Halfling and Goblins.
The trick is to properly manage the TV growth of your team.
At low TV don't buy 3 reserves, and instead skill some players, then add the reserves.
Adding the reserves after 5 games will increase the TV making the team with 5 games facing teams with fewer but more developed players.

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Rbthma



Joined: Jan 14, 2009

Post   Posted: May 20, 2017 - 02:04 Reply with quote Back to top

I see 2 matches where you didn't take your inducements properly, and I didn't look back very far. Orcs 134TV vs. Chaos 151, no inducements taken and Orcs 158 vs. Chaos 175 where you only took an apothecary. That might explain why those matchups seemed a bit unfair.
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