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finsterface



Joined: Apr 29, 2012

Post   Posted: May 20, 2017 - 11:37 Reply with quote Back to top

Krunkova wrote:
I have only played a few games here on FUMBBL and have noticed an interesting trend which I cannot say I' happy about.
I have 13 games with an Orc team that is coming along relatively fine, but the mm system keeps pairing it up with teams that have played over 50 games.
Elf teams (or worse Chaos teams) with players that have 5 skills. Tried talking to an opponent ,that started being a **** and told me i can't play. He has a chaos team with a player with 150 SPP.

That is not a fair matchup. No amount of skill on his part is involved - I didn't have the S to cage or rush - and my players have 1-2 skills - so i had to take risks. Only lost 1-0 .

Am I missing something ?

Is TV the only parameter? Shouldn't the no of games played matter?

I was offered a game from a guy that played 115 games with his team. Thats almost 600 SPP from -mvps alone.

What should I do?


Krunkova:
1. TV is just the measurement that's used on this site for matchups.
2. In the R-division there's the additional issue of having to agree / negotiate for a matchup that is considered fair (enough) by both coaches.

Looking at your teams and their matchups, I get the impression you didn't pay much attention to neither of those 2 conditions.

I suggest you start playing in [B] - that way you don't have to deal with #2 at all, because a scheduler does the matchups for you there and would not allow for such huge TV-differences within the first 15 games or so (not like you have suffered from in R, anyways). Immediately playing the games, that get scheduled (within a few minutes after the pairings happen - every 15mins) is mandatory. So no way for either side to dodge out of something. It should be expected you're the topdog 50% of the time.

But *please do* consider building / buying your team according to (as-low-as-possible) TV there, as well!

I.e. your rookie-B-norse start out with a fanfactor of 8. That is +8 to TV. As you've already said yourself that's equivalent to 4 normal skills on the players. If you want to win and do not think that ff=8 helps your team win the next match, than don't invest in ff Wink
Under the current ruleset we get journeymen for missing players, so don't fear having only 8 men from your roster for the game after the next. Just deal with the next. It's like Zen: Live in the here-and-now, don't be concerned with that distant future...

My teams all start with ff=0 for this exact reason.

I'm quite optimistic, that you will build successful teams within only a few games. if you're winning a fair amount of games, ff will go up (and bloat your TV) enough Wink

Gold is not so important if you just consider having a competitive team for just the next matchup.

I've just looked up my favorite team in the Box and looked at matchups: Out of 13 games the TV-differences were +/- 0..8 TV (so a diff=8 was the maximum!), avg should be +/- 3..4 TV. Wink

So to make a long posting short: Embrace the here-and-now, play a team in the Box (while paying attention at not paying too much TV for what they are worth on the pitch in the next match), don't get yourself involved in the burden of finding a fair matchup yourself and don't worry so much about what will happen after the next match - not because it doesn't matter, but because it's the most reasonable way to be realistically confident.

Also don't burden yourself with thinking about how many games you have to get in for your team to get somewhere - apparently there are coaches who start one particular roster over and over again and retire it, once it has accumulated too much (!) fanfactor to be efficient on the pitch. I find that quite lame and it's not what I'm suggesting, but just to mention it's not neccessarily about getting 100's of games in with a team in order for it to become successfull. Use those advantages you possibly see in your team for the next matchup (fanfactor=0 might just be one of those).
Krunkova



Joined: Jun 11, 2007

Post   Posted: May 20, 2017 - 21:42 Reply with quote Back to top

Kondor wrote:
Krunkova,

Your 7/7/11 record is extremely good for someone who has not played a ton of games around here. Don't get down about some bad games. Learn from them and enjoy the next one.

In ranked, my recommendation is to take games no more than 100 TV above yours. Sure you will still get a few underdogs with amazing players that make winning difficult but most games will be well matched.

If you do not want to face older teams you can take a look at the number of games a team has played by clicking the blue icon next to the other team name in game finder. However, I don't think you will find it necessary after a couple of matches.

With the new MVP system you will be able to skill up your own core of 3-5 players fairly quickly.



I am quoting this since it's a nice thing to hear. Before I continue- would like to address one thing that has perhaps slipped under the radar of , well in fact a number of people:
I wasn't complaining about loosing .Maybe it could be red between the lines, but that's not it. I'm 35 . I started playing bb when I was 19.

I played hundreds of table top matches and tho I do complain about luck sometimes- looking back , I never lost a single game outside of one of 2 reasons:

1. Failing to anticipate something or making too many mistakes
2. Playing a match with a great SPP/player difference

The first reason is humane in nature and happens to everyone at least every now and then.
The second reason means you have to take higher risks within the game in order to compete. Ultimately , if you don't have the few skills your team needs - those games are not a contest .

I know I'm painting with a broad stroke here- but it boils down to it if you really think about it.
mrt1212



Joined: Feb 26, 2013

Post   Posted: May 20, 2017 - 21:45 Reply with quote Back to top

Alright, you are going to be my Eliza Doolittle and I will be your Henry Higgins.
Sp00keh



Joined: Dec 06, 2011

Post   Posted: May 20, 2017 - 22:24 Reply with quote Back to top

Is that a proposal *gasp*
Sp00keh



Joined: Dec 06, 2011

Post   Posted: May 20, 2017 - 22:29 Reply with quote Back to top

"Ultimately , if you don't have the few skills your team needs - those games are not a contest"
Nah... Ok generally you are at disadvantage if outmatched, but the game is not won until it's over

Look at Rabe's recent run to get in the finals of XFL nurgle, frequently under TV by 800+
His opponents made a load of mistakes but still, he focused on the ball and did really well
mrt1212



Joined: Feb 26, 2013

Post   Posted: May 20, 2017 - 22:39 Reply with quote Back to top

Sp00keh wrote:
Is that a proposal *gasp*


I want to take him under my wing and reinvent him as a BB player. One who treats each game a discrete experience that tests the mettle of his ability with ever changing underlying conditions that can range from extremely favorable to extremely unfavorable.
Sp00keh



Joined: Dec 06, 2011

Post   Posted: May 20, 2017 - 22:42 Reply with quote Back to top

The rhhains in hspain fall hmainly on thhe plahhin
Sp00keh



Joined: Dec 06, 2011

Post   Posted: May 20, 2017 - 22:44 Reply with quote Back to top

Actually so it's more like takumi and ryosuke from initial D
Sp00keh



Joined: Dec 06, 2011

Post   Posted: May 20, 2017 - 22:45 Reply with quote Back to top

Or naruto & jiraya

Jiraya & nagato! The child of prophesy
Macavity



Joined: Nov 23, 2004

Post   Posted: May 20, 2017 - 23:12 Reply with quote Back to top

Naruto was the child of prophecy.

_________________
When I became a man I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up. -C.S. Lewis
Gartch



Joined: Sep 07, 2012

Post   Posted: May 20, 2017 - 23:17 Reply with quote Back to top

Wreckage wrote:
Suppurax wrote:
"Is TV the only parameter? Shouldn't the no of games played matter? "

Yes I totally agree with you! The number of games played is more relevant than the TV.



Lol, more relevant? You high? No.

With all respect, I also believe number of games is more relevant.

If you play in a private league, at least in the beginning, teams all have played the same number of matchs (and when in private league you have new teams facing old teams, it also begin to cause unfair games exactly like in Black Box)

I would prefer a black box system which try to mimic that, but I understand some (actually probably the majority) of Black Box coaches prefer a TV matching system.
But as OP pointed out, when you have a young team and you face a team which has played 10 more games and with skills stacked on few players, you are at disadvantage, even with close TV.

I play a lot in Black Box, and a lot of my loss come from this kind of games.
I don't complain, I take the Black Box as it is. I don't minmax much because I prefer to use Black Box as practice for private league (which I prefer), so I prefer to manage my teams like I would in a private league, it's my choice to not use the optimal management way (aka minmaxing) in such an environment, so I'm not complaining about these losses, actually I don't really care, it's a good challenge/practice.

But I think the OP question is legit: TV does not make everything when it comes about "fair games".
Krunkova



Joined: Jun 11, 2007

Post   Posted: May 20, 2017 - 23:20 Reply with quote Back to top

mrt1212 wrote:
Alright, you are going to be my Eliza Doolittle and I will be your Henry Higgins.


Deal.

Here' my last game with Elves in Blackbox. I did score 2 unlikely TD from blitzes, but to be honest my opponent wasn't covering the flanks at all. Fun(ny) game.

https://fumbbl.com/p/match?id=3904681

Tips from the teacher?
Sp00keh



Joined: Dec 06, 2011

Post   Posted: May 20, 2017 - 23:38 Reply with quote Back to top

Macavity wrote:
Naruto was the child of prophecy.

Nagato was the child of prophecy first
...or he was the failed middle chapter, between jiraya and naruto
He's a better comparison to this thread's situation anyway
finsterface



Joined: Apr 29, 2012

Post   Posted: May 20, 2017 - 23:56 Reply with quote Back to top

Krunkova wrote:
https://fumbbl.com/p/match?id=3904681


Nice match. Once u have a variety of teams (at different TV-levels) in the Box and activate all at once, chances are that u will keep finding similarly close (or even closer) matched teams.

You can view the considered matchups (and their suitability-score) here. (Suitability=1000 would mean a perfect match according to the scheduler's algorithm).
Krunkova



Joined: Jun 11, 2007

Post   Posted: May 21, 2017 - 08:10 Reply with quote Back to top

finsterface wrote:


Krunkova:
1. TV is just the measurement that's used on this site for matchups.
2. In the R-division there's the additional issue of having to agree / negotiate for a matchup that is considered fair (enough) by both coaches.

Looking at your teams and their matchups, I get the impression you didn't pay much attention to neither of those 2 conditions.

I suggest you start playing in [B] - that way you don't have to deal with #2 at all, because a scheduler does the matchups for you there and would not allow for such huge TV-differences within the first 15 games or so (not like you have suffered from in R, anyways). Immediately playing the games, that get scheduled (within a few minutes after the pairings happen - every 15mins) is mandatory. So no way for either side to dodge out of something. It should be expected you're the topdog 50% of the time.

But *please do* consider building / buying your team according to (as-low-as-possible) TV there, as well!

I.e. your rookie-B-norse start out with a fanfactor of 8. That is +8 to TV. As you've already said yourself that's equivalent to 4 normal skills on the players. If you want to win and do not think that ff=8 helps your team win the next match, than don't invest in ff Wink
Under the current ruleset we get journeymen for missing players, so don't fear having only 8 men from your roster for the game after the next. Just deal with the next. It's like Zen: Live in the here-and-now, don't be concerned with that distant future...

My teams all start with ff=0 for this exact reason.

I'm quite optimistic, that you will build successful teams within only a few games. if you're winning a fair amount of games, ff will go up (and bloat your TV) enough Wink

Gold is not so important if you just consider having a competitive team for just the next matchup.


To be honest I started this topic to find out how come everything conventional BB (in leagues,cups etc) teaches us doesn't seem to aplly to R or B.
Old school BB, back in the day was never designed to be played in seasons with fixed matches each week. That style of play HEAVILY favors the bash teams, unless you limit the no of bash teams.
Example: You're playing High elves and your next 5 games are: Undead,Orcs,Dwarves,Norse,Skaven
By the time you got to the 5th game, your team was decimated. Note that you where never given free lineman if you missed players due to injury or death. So everyone had a bench ,the longer - the better.
FF played a crucial part and was important to keep the team going,protect against pitch invasion and give you free cheering fans re-rolls.

All the teams where initially designed with the following league rules in mind:
You would all agree on a specific Cup to be played. The cup is played on a Saturday and will be a knock out system,with the first 3 teams gaining awards. There where also best individual awards. Before that date,everyone would play friendlies (if there is such a thing) and you could play any number of them as long as you didn't play more then two matches with the same opponent in a row.

Do we have such a thing on this site? Out of all those leagues...

TV matchmaking motivates you to have zero FF,zero coaches , a short bench and 4-5 mega cheesy stars. The rest of the team is cheap,or free and mainly used for fouling opposing 4-5 mega cheesy stars. A god forbid you start making money.
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