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Wozzaa



Joined: Apr 23, 2016

Post   Posted: Aug 01, 2017 - 00:25 Reply with quote Back to top

pythrr wrote:
cultural appropriation much? do you have an ok for this from an iwi or a kaumātua?


A kaumatua or a single iwi would not have the power or authority to 'okay' the model. However, it is not a bad idea to seek consultation from an iwi group. The only issue with this is all iwi are different and have different opinions on these things.

Here is an interesting article

The only issue I think would be if the model is seen as causing 'harm to the culture'. Perhaps some would see the comparison to Orcs as 'causing harm'. My suggestion to Punga Miniatures was to create a human line of 'Maori- style' Blood Bowl miniatures.


Last edited by Wozzaa on Aug 01, 2017 - 00:25; edited 1 time in total
neubau



Joined: Nov 12, 2016

Post   Posted: Aug 01, 2017 - 00:25 Reply with quote Back to top

lol pythrr, these don't come painted, so how could anyone sue OP?
Wozzaa



Joined: Apr 23, 2016

Post   Posted: Aug 01, 2017 - 00:35 Reply with quote Back to top

pythrr does make valid points, and Maori as a group are very active when it comes to shutting down misappropriation.

I wonder if these miniatures went through the process pythrr is suggesting, or have had any problems in court?


Last edited by Wozzaa on Aug 01, 2017 - 00:37; edited 1 time in total
ArrestedDevelopment



Joined: Sep 14, 2015

Post   Posted: Aug 01, 2017 - 00:37 Reply with quote Back to top

neubau wrote:
lol pythrr, these don't come painted, so how could anyone sue OP?


His concept art comes with clear Tā moko and it's quite obviously in absolutely no way kirituhi. Especially when he clearly states on the site that the models are inspired by Māori.

Every time you see a tattooed Māori, Tā moko is telling you the Whakapapa of the person, their tribe, their people.

It's literally inscribed culture on flesh.

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neubau



Joined: Nov 12, 2016

Post   Posted: Aug 01, 2017 - 00:50 Reply with quote Back to top

i don't argue about the point pythrr makes, but i can't see op being sued, as the mini comes unpainted. all he might have to do is remove the example he painted. taking maori culture as inspiration is also not in any form an ip theft.
ArrestedDevelopment



Joined: Sep 14, 2015

Post   Posted: Aug 01, 2017 - 01:02 Reply with quote Back to top

When Pythrr replied the models were called "Maori Orcs".

It's not about "IP theft" really, it's about whether the people themselves consider being represented by "orcs" culturally harmful to their heritage, and their own rights. It's also about whether that heritage is being used for profiteering (ie. to sell the miniature).

You might want to read this:
https://loc.gov/law/help/nz-maori-culture/index.php

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ramchop



Joined: Oct 12, 2013

Post   Posted: Aug 01, 2017 - 01:31 Reply with quote Back to top

pythrr wrote:
BTW, I've reported the minatures site to the NZ Human Rights Commission (https://www.hrc.co.nz), who have an active history of addressing cultural theft.


pythrr wrote:
I'm giving the OP some advice before they get sued. I'm actually trying to HELP them.


I think these were in the wrong order. Advise, discuss, and then if still not happy report.

Punga Miniatures have at least demonstrated that they do listen. "Maori Orcs" were changed to "Toa Orcs" after discussion on the NZ BB facebook page.

Opinions are quite varied there, and it'll be near impossible for him to please everyone.

I like the model very much, but get why there are issues. He is trying though.
Punga



Joined: Jul 31, 2017

Post   Posted: Aug 01, 2017 - 09:49 Reply with quote Back to top

pythrr wrote:

Actually, BB is not copyright protected. The imagery and name are, but not the rules etc. That is how fumbbl continues to exist (by rebranding it as FF).

FF (fumbbl) intentionally does not use GW art or imagery. Can you see the difference here?

A good analogy. If we talk about tattoos:
1) then our artist did not copy it from real ones, but drew these tattoos himself, in fact it is a working concept art
2) we release miniatures, without painting on them there will be no tattoo

The question of "cultural theft" is up to you, I do not understand what it means. Will Maori have less culture because of me? Or Maori will associate with my miniatures, I do not think so.
In any case, we are ready for a sound dialogue.
Punga



Joined: Jul 31, 2017

Post   Posted: Aug 01, 2017 - 09:50 Reply with quote Back to top

huff wrote:
That mini is pretty freakin sweet.

Glad to hear, thanks Smile
Punga



Joined: Jul 31, 2017

Post   Posted: Aug 01, 2017 - 10:07 Reply with quote Back to top

ArrestedDevelopment wrote:
When Pythrr replied the models were called "Maori Orcs".

It's not about "IP theft" really, it's about whether the people themselves consider being represented by "orcs" culturally harmful to their heritage, and their own rights. It's also about whether that heritage is being used for profiteering (ie. to sell the miniature).

You might want to read this:
https://loc.gov/law/help/nz-maori-culture/index.php

When I posted on this site, the miniatures were called the Toa orcs.
Why orcs?
We used orcs because they were strong and furious players and it was suitable for the universe, we were not pursuing the goal of showing primitive and simple Maori, we have plans if this orc team loves people we will create with people or other gaming races.
huff



Joined: Dec 19, 2009

Post   Posted: Aug 01, 2017 - 13:18 Reply with quote Back to top

I believe the overall theme may suit Wood Elves as well... Just a thought.
pythrr



Joined: Mar 07, 2006

Post   Posted: Aug 01, 2017 - 16:26 Reply with quote Back to top

neubau wrote:
lol pythrr, these don't come painted, so how could anyone sue OP?


lol, it is always the germans, austrians, and eastern euros who take he piss out of any idea of indigneous rights. I'll just leave that there for you all to consider...

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Cerberus85



Joined: May 06, 2017

Post   Posted: Aug 01, 2017 - 17:01 Reply with quote Back to top

pythrr wrote:
neubau wrote:
lol pythrr, these don't come painted, so how could anyone sue OP?


lol, it is always the germans, austrians, and eastern euros who take he piss out of any idea of indigneous rights. I'll just leave that there for you all to consider...


Wow, so now I'm offended as a Brit married to an Eastern European by your racist sweeping statement.

So your argument is that the Op is making a model with racist undertones due to tribal tattoos and I understand the point your trying to make. However, you then go and make the above statement against Germans, Austrians and Eastern Europeans and don't see how it's hypocritical to call racist BS (page 1) and then say something like this.....
Punga



Joined: Jul 31, 2017

Post   Posted: Aug 01, 2017 - 18:28 Reply with quote Back to top

Have a question about the team. What team composition would you make for the base team? Now there is 1 blocker, 1 blitzer and 1 thrower.
Garion



Joined: Aug 19, 2009

Post   Posted: Aug 01, 2017 - 18:31 Reply with quote Back to top

If you mean the models I think you need at least 2 different versions of blockers and blitzers. 1 thrower is fine. linemen probably 2 different versions.


In the game -
Starting line up for Orcs is almost always -
4 Black Orc Blockers
4 Blitzers
1 Thrower
2 Linemen
3 Rerolls
Total 990k

If you really really want a Troll then you go -


1 Troll
4 Black Orc Blockers
4 Blitzers
1 Thrower
1 Lineman
2 Rerolls
Total 990k

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